Vienna Ensemble vs Vienna Instrument

[fredon]

I tested two configurations on Logic Pro 8 using each software on Mac: Vienna Ensemble and Vienna Instrument. I found out that the Vienna Ensemble behaves better with the host sequencer.

- Loading a project with multiple instances of the Vienna Instrument will load much slower than using one instance of Vienna Ensemble (which can hold up to 16 instruments).

- The Vienna Instrument plug-in is a small window that does not contain the instrument interface, but only a button that opens a separate application when you click on it. It requires thus more clicks before you can see or edit the content of your instrument. If you choose to leave all instances of your Vienna Instrument plug-ins open, you have to keep all the corresponding plug-in windows open: closing a little plug-in window (the one with the button that opens a separate application) will also close the separate application window. All those little windows in the host sequencer take a lot op space on screen, which is unhandy.

- If you forgot your Vienna Key, you simply cannot open your project if you have Vienna Instruments in it: it will block the host sequencer permanently. With Vienna Ensemble instead, you can still open the project and work on other tracks: the host sequencer will hang only if you try to double-click the Vienna Ensemble plug-in.

Please note that Vienna Ensemble 2 is free for all registered users, and the only difference with Vienna Ensemble 3 is that it can only run on the same computer, not on a network computer.

[Conquer]

Hi Frederic, thanks for that very useful comparison. I run VI's on a PC and also found VE to be the way to go.

[cgernaey]

I as well use VE3 on all my machines now.  I haven't taken the time to actually "time" the process however, I got addicted to the amazing panning ability I can do in VE3.  I never was any good at panning in Logic, and the VE3 panning just seems easier and more accurate to me.  I can now pan within 2-3 minutes my whole orchestra perfectly where it used to take me endless retries in Logic and it never sounded right.

The only slightly annoying thing is that little window and how hard it is to actually access the main VE3 instruments window within logic but I read on here the explanation as to why it works that way.  I can live with it.  It isn't a show stopper for me.

Another main reason I love to use VE3 is because when I am in the studio, I open Logic, load my project, then open the VE3 plug-in and hit reconnect and I can pick my network machine.  When I go on the road with my MacbookPro, I can open Logic, open my project and then open my VE3 plug-in and connect to my LOCAL machine and viola!  It loads all the same instruments etc for me.  I don't have to do any additional configuring so I love it!

Maestro2be

[matteo]

Thank You, very interesting. I should try the Vienna Ensemble, but I need to study how it works. - Matteo

[Conquer]

It's pretty simple - you open it, then use 'INSERT INSTRUMENT' to add as many VI's as you need for your arrangement. The VI functions as normal, except now each one can operate on its own MIDI channel. The panning and mixing controls are very nice and you can save the whole project.

The only thing that confused me at first is that opening VE launches a separate program called 'Vienna Ensemble Service'. This is essential to the running of VE but you don't have to touch it, it just sits in the background doing its thing. It should always be turned off AFTER you quit VE, not before.

[fredon]

Matteo: if you use Logic Pro 8, I can tell you how it works.

[user_30995]

Hope this is not old news, but I've noticed this:

Writing for string orchestra, one usually needs violin 1, violin 2, violas, celli and bass.

In VE2, one needs to load 2 times the samples of the orchestral violins.

(let's assume the use is for monophonic legato samples)

As a VI however, It does not load the same samples 2 times.

So by loading two VIs by the same name, only 1 VI will need to occupy the RAM.

So in this last case, VI draws samples from the same place in RAM, which saves lots of RAM.

This is a major draw back for VE to me, since my RAM is most limited.

Or is there a workaround in VE?

I hope I'm wrong somewhere, but this is how it looks.

[DG]

@Emanuel said:

Hope this is not old news, but I've noticed this:

Writing for string orchestra, one usually needs violin 1, violin 2, violas, celli and bass.

In VE2, one needs to load 2 times the samples of the orchestral violins.

(let's assume the use is for monophonic legato samples)

As a VI however, It does not load the same samples 2 times.

So by loading two VIs by the same name, only 1 VI will need to occupy the RAM.

So in this last case, VI draws samples from the same place in RAM, which saves lots of RAM.

This is a major draw back for VE to me, since my RAM is most limited.

Or is there a workaround in VE?

I hope I'm wrong somewhere, but this is how it looks.

The samples are not loaded twice in VE either, as long as you are using the plugin version, not multiple standalones.

DG

[MDesigner]

I've been considering VE, my hesitation is that for me, in Logic 8, it feels like a step backwards from my current process.  Here's what I mean, and maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong:

Currently, just using Vienna Instruments, I add a new "Software Instrument" track, set the input to Vienna, and pick an instrument.  For reverb, I simply route to a bus that has Altiverb on it.  Very simple.  So I can load up cellos on one track, basses on another, and route them to a bus called "bass strings" where I have the proper reverb.

If I switch to VE (which is a multi-instrument like Kontakt 2), then I have to route each instrument from within VE out to an aux bus first, with one aux bus per instrument (so I can control volume levels individually.. no sense in routing horns and trumpets to the same aux bus, then I can't control their volumes individually), THEN I have to route those to a bus for my reverb (I do lump in instrument groups for reverb if they're close enough together).  This a real pain.  Not to mention you lose the ability to automate when using a multi-instrument (drawback in Logic, not VE's fault--in Logic you can see several MIDI tracks but adjusting the volume slider on one adjusts the volume for the whole multi-instrument).  All volume and panning must be done to the aux bus the instruments are routed to

If someone could explain a decent setup in Logic 8 that's NOT a hassle to manage, I'm open to it.  I should be clear, this doesn't really have much to do with VE, it looks great.  This is mostly about how Logic 8 deals with multi-instruments, which, although it's been greatly improved since Logic 7 (no more messing with the Environment), it's still not ideal, IMO.

[DG]

You are correct that Logic is the main problem for you. However do bear in mind that with VE you can actually pan the thing properly. This would be a very large incentive for me to use VE over VI.

DG

[Dom]

@MDesigner said:

If I switch to VE (which is a multi-instrument like Kontakt 2), then I have to route each instrument from within VE out to an aux bus first, with one aux bus per instrument (so I can control volume levels individually.. no sense in routing horns and trumpets to the same aux bus, then I can't control their volumes individually),

 

Not really necessary. I have a template that has 16 instruments (midi instruments) sending on the 16 channels, wired up to the software instrument containing the VE. You can then control volume as usual. You can still have different buses coming back on different auxes if you want different reverbs or eq, but you don't have to.

You have to "mess" with the environment for this, I just don't see why peole have a problem with it. It's one of Logic's powerful features.

Dom 

[Dom]

@DG said:

The samples are not loaded twice in VE either, as long as you are using the plugin version, not multiple standalones.

 

Even the standalone (VE3 at least) doesn't load the samples twice, at least within the same VE instance.

[DG]

@DG said:

The samples are not loaded twice in VE either, as long as you are using the plugin version, not multiple standalones.

 

Even the standalone (VE3 at least) doesn't load the samples twice, at least within the same VE instance.

It is important to remember that VE3 is not a standalone. It is a networked plug....! This is why it shares memory. If you were using standalones, then it wouldn't.

DG

[Dom]

Perhaps I'm not using the right terminology. On my slave I have both a VE3 "standalone" instance with the most used samples. It outputs through an RME ADAT card. Then, sometimes, I'm also running the VE3 service, for loading additional instruments. It outputs through gigabit ethernet. The two are totally independent.

Dom 

[michkhol]

I noticed that Vienna Instruments uses less CPU on my rig (Logic 8 + G5 + Tiger) than Vienna Ensemble. As for the power panning whatever used for it sounds artificial. "Placing" an instrument group in a hall requires interaction between the [b]off axis[/b] recorded direct signal (not the case with Vienna) and the reverb from [b]off center[/b] source. For the latter you need at least IRs for several locations on the stage in the same room working simultaneously.

[MDesigner]

I forgot to mention, I'm on a single Mac Pro quad-core, so having a network of machines with VE is a moot point for me.  Also, I don't use panning at all, I do stage placement via Altiverb.

I think I may have just talked myself out of using VE. ;) I don't have any problems with the VI interface other than that silly "Show Window" button that comes up when I double click the Vienna Instruments AU on any given track.  I'd seriously pay money to get rid of that thing.  Why is it that no other AUs do that?  Is it some kind of wrapper, maybe?  Is Vienna on Mac just really a VST with some kind of AU wrapper around it, hence the extra step?

[DG]

@MDesigner said:

I forgot to mention, I'm on a single Mac Pro quad-core, so having a network of machines with VE is a moot point for me.  Also, I don't use panning at all, I do stage placement via Altiverb.

I think I may have just talked myself out of using VE. 😉 I don't have any problems with the VI interface other than that silly "Show Window" button that comes up when I double click the Vienna Instruments AU on any given track.  I'd seriously pay money to get rid of that thing.  Why is it that no other AUs do that?  Is it some kind of wrapper, maybe?  Is Vienna on Mac just really a VST with some kind of AU wrapper around it, hence the extra step?

I think that the window is caused because VI (and VE) uses its own memory space. When VI becomes 64bit, you'll thank VSL for this, because it will allow you to use all your RAM, even if your sequencer is still 32bit.

DG

[MDesigner]

Ahh, I see.  Makes sense.

I guess I might appreciate it down the road.  But at the moment, it feels like a small bump in my workflow.. mildly disturbing but not horrible. :)

[DG]

@MDesigner said:

Ahh, I see.  Makes sense.

I guess I might appreciate it down the road.  But at the moment, it feels like a small bump in my workflow.. mildly disturbing but not horrible. 😊

If you want to appreciate it now, then in real terms it means that you can use 3GB or so in your sequencer, 2.5Gb in VI and another 2.5 in VE. Without all this "behind the scenes" you would only be able to use the 3GB, without using standalones.

DG

[Cyril Blanc]

I use a Vienna Ensemble via IAC.
Big advantage is that Logic does not produce an audio midi error sync when you edit the VE while Logic is playing

Best

Cyril