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  4. Violins 1 and 2

  • Violins 1 and 2

    C
    C

     Hi there

    Just entered the world of VSL after very recently purchased the basic string sets in download form (Strings + extended) this includes - Chamber / Orchestral / Solo / and Appasionata - in a cut down form.

    I own a Kirk Hunter Emerald Licence and as part of this the strings are available as Violins 1 and 2 sections. Layeringof these will result in different samples being played against the other.

    How do people approach the absence of a second Violin section in VSL? 

    I am experimenting with subtle layers of Kirk and VSL (VSL being dominant the set). Any thoughts?

    Regards 
  • E
    E

    I have used the Appasionata Violins as first violins and use the orchestra violins as second violins. I have the all of the complete DVD packages so I have more options.  Before the Appoasionata strings were released I used the orchestra violins for the first and second sections. If there was a unison passage, I used the orchestra violas for the unison passage only.

    I have suggested several times for a selection bowed notes where the players use and up and down bowing at the same (i.e. sustained, legato, detche/portato, staccato). I feel this could fill in some nessessary gaps.  
  • Beat KaufmannB
    Beat KaufmannB
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    @calculus said:

     Hi there


    I own a Kirk Hunter Emerald Licence and as part of this the strings are available as Violins 1 and 2 sections. Layeringof these will result in different samples being played against the other.


    I am experimenting with subtle layers of Kirk and VSL (VSL being dominant the set). Any thoughts?

    Regards 

     

    Hi Calculus

    Welcome to the VSL-world!

    The question of "second violins" is as old as VSL is. So "old users" are a bit tired of this question. Try to understand this.

    An unfriendly answer could be therefore: Try to reach these following VSL-results with your Hunter-library - even if you have 7 different violins:

    http://vsl.co.at/Player2.aspx?Lang=1&DemoId=4678 

     or

    http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/VSL_New_VI/BK_Telemann_Menuett.mp3 

     or

    http:// ...

    A more constructive answer could be: Yes, (unfortunately?) there are no second violins. If you need to have

    two violins which should play the same part (unisono) then play one of them a half tone lower (midi side) and

    compensate this half tone with the Vienna Instrument by tuning on the audio side the other way round (pitch + 1/2 tone).

    Both violins will play now the same melody but with other samples - in VSL quality [:D].

    These are VSL's 2nd Violins.  

    Remark:

    If you have SE - Libraries you should play the melody one "whole" tone lower and tune it afterwards

    + 1 tone - because the samples of SE-Libraries changes every whole tone. 

    All the Best and a lot of success

    with your new Samples 

    Beat Kaufmann

    ____________________

    www.beat-kaufmann.com 

    - Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/
  • W
    W

    Yes, that is the best way to do it - transpose your part and then detune it in reverse by the same amount.  The reason for this is that VSL sampled so many articulations - as opposed to the tiny amount of samples Kirk Hunter used - that it would be utterly stupid  and a waste of money and time to sample them all over again for second violins.

    Especially since real orchestral 2nd violins belligerently compete with 1st and are determined to reproduce everything the firsts can do.  So with samples that are transposed/detuned you get all the same articulations with a different sample set.

  • R
    R

    Not to be lazy (but I am) - our wiz-bang Christian could work this 'doubling - detuning - same instrument(s) - different samples'....  Load up the same patch (sections or solo instruments) - hit a button on VI and the 'detuning' is done under the hood.

    Be a nice little software feature.[:)] 
  • C
    C

    Thank you all for kind replies.

    Will be using the pitched method to obtain different samples.  The one thing I don't like about this is having the actual midi parts then not in the 'real' pitch, but nevermind.

    These Strings are big step up from Kirk's but subtle layering works well with his library(more work though)

    I also want to add that using the 'Vienna Ensemble'  is a revelation and although I love Kontakt 3 it has for me not been the best way to have a string section.  Think I might be investing a lot more in Vienna!

    Best Regards 

      
  • S
    S

    You need not have problems with your midi part either - most sequencers have a midi transpose function on the output side. Using this you won't affect the mididate recorded - just the midi output stream.
  • L
    L
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    @Another User said:

    The one thing I don't like about this is having the actual midi parts then not in the 'real' pitch, but nevermind.
    You don't have to do that.

    Instead you can go into the "Edit Cell" page for each single patch and do the transposing there.
  • S
    S

    Hi to the Forum,

    I have a couple of questions regarding this thread, and if anyone can help me out here, that's great! 

    Beat mentions  the sample player can bend the pitch, and when I was checking this, I saw that there is the pitch control on the far left of the vi keyboard interface, and there is also the Master Tune giving you A440, which you can change, and also the pitch bend range in cents. Which is the correct one that will do this audio tuning?  And, when you know the right one to use, how much do you bend the pitch to get the correct transposition?

    Thanks if anyone knows that answer. The reason I'm asking is that after reading this thread, I started experimenting with Sibelius 5 using the SE version and the orchestral string matrices. I did a quick orchestral sketch, then transposed the violin 2 part up, then went into the vi player to do the pitch bend, and then realized, well, what controller do you use? 

    Later, in looking back on what Beat mentioned in this thread, I realized I had made a mistake in my transpostion of the 2nd violin staff, as he writes;

    two violins which should play the same part (unisono) then play one of them a half tone lower (midi side) and

    compensate this half tone with the Vienna Instrument by tuning on the audio side the other way round (pitch + 1/2 tone).

    Both violins will play now the same melody but with other samples - in VSL quality.

    so I realized that I made a mistake in my Sibelius score - I should have transposed the 2nd violin staff down a semitone, and then tune the vi instrument audio in the opposite direction - up a semitone.

    I also noticed that he states: 

    If you have SE - Libraries you should play the melody one "whole" tone lower and tune it afterwards

    + 1 tone - because the samples of SE-Libraries changes every whole tone. 

     So, I need to tranpose the track a whole tone lower if I am using the SE library, and not for the other sampled string libraries - I have both so thats is fine.

    Ok, so,  which controller is the correct one to detune the pitch higher or lower on the audio side of things, and, depending upon which controller is the correct one, how much do you measure it in either cents or the A440 absolute pitch for either a tone or semitone up?

    thanks heaps,

    Steve[:D] 
  • M
    M
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    @Another User said:

    •In your Instrument's window, go to the patch assign page. (Upper right-hand corner)

    • This will open the Cell(s) portion in the left hand half of the page.

    • In the top part of this window, you'll see Edit Cell. Click on that.

       This opens up the Edit Cell paramaters in the lower half of that part of the window.

       You will see 7 sliders, for attack, decay, sustain, etc. Just above these sliders you

       will notice 3 tabs labelled OCT, TRANSP. and DYN. R. with a scroll Up/Down button next to each one.

    • Click on the TRANSP button and you will see it go up one with each click.

    So in your case, click that twice so it reads: TRANSP. 2

    And now all your notes are transposed UP two half-steps, so accordingly your midi notes will play out of tune; so go in to your sequencer track data and transpose those notes DOWN two half-steps. And there you have it!

    Hope that was clear enough :) 

    > michael
  • S
    S

    Hi Michael,

    thanks very much for that info - very helpful. Now I'm going to try it out!

    best regards,

    Steve[:D] 
  • Beat KaufmannB
    Beat KaufmannB
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    @Steve Martin said:

    Hi to the Forum,

    .... Ok, so,  which controller is the correct one to detune the pitch higher or lower on the audio side of things, and, depending upon which controller is the correct one, how much do you measure it in either cents or the A440 absolute pitch for either a tone or semitone up?

     thanks heaps,

     Steve 

     

    Dear Steve

    Nice to meet you here. Hope you are well.

    1. Transposing on the midi side - which is not a problem apart from wrong displayed notes...

    2. Transposing on the audio side - which is not a problem within a small range. But without any

        correcting algorithms you will get the micky mouse - or darth vader (Star Wars) effect if you

        tune a sample too much.

    The Vienna Instrument doesn't have such corrections and is therefore not able to change the

    frequency of the samples in a wide range. That's to keep the quality of the vienna samples.

    Master tune : 420Hz - 440Hz (a) - 460Hz (That's not quite +/- a half tone).

                                                                    (A#= 466,16Hz / G# = 415,3Hz)

    PitchBend : 100(%)  means + / - a half tone

                       200(%) means + / - a whole tone.

    So "Master Tune" and "Pitch Bend" are the only possibilities where you can tune

    the audio side.

    All other tuning- and transpose possibilities influence the signal on the incomining midi-side. 

    I've got that you are using Sibelius. I think you want to keep the score as it is.

    So then transpose the midi-signal directly with the Vienna Instrument at TRANSP for "-2"

    (see post of michael above) and compensate the audio side with PichtBend (Range 200).

    Both of these values mean "a whole tone".

    "How to pitchbend?" > see here.

    All the best

    Beat 

    - Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/
  • S
    S

     Hey Beat!

    always great to hear from you! Sorry, did not notice another reply to my question as I have been away from my computer for a day or so.

    Thanks for the extra details, which also helps amplify and make clearer some of the points in this thread that yourself, and others have mentioned.. Even though I can easily make a second violin section that sounds different from the first due to me having appassionata strings and the complete orchestral string set, solo strings [which I like to layer on the string sections], and the SE, sometimes I sketch things out using SE, and to be able to achieve a second violin sound using just the SE samples is really helpful.

    Again, thanks for your reply to my question as well.

    best,

    Steve[:D] 
  • C
    C
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    @Sapkiller said:

    You need not have problems with your midi part either - most sequencers have a midi transpose function on the output side. Using this you won't affect the mididate recorded - just the midi output stream.

     

    I have been using this simple function for years and for some reason I just didn't even think of it at the time I replied...doh!

    Using this method of the transpose function at midi output or VSL instrument stage both do the trick of finding different samples just fine.

    Thanks again. 
  • J
    J

    Still trying to head my head around the lack of a second violins section. I'm thinking of eq'ing the Vl. II section so as to sound a bit different (a tad darker). It might also work to apply (very lightly) a plug-in such as an inflator or bit crusher (takeing off 1 bit), or other.

    Can anyone applied such techniques?
  • D
    D
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    @Rob Elliott said:

    Not to be lazy (but I am) - our wiz-bang Christian could work this 'doubling - detuning - same instrument(s) - different samples'....  Load up the same patch (sections or solo instruments) - hit a button on VI and the 'detuning' is done under the hood.

    Be a nice little software feature. 

    Indeed!! Has it been implemented yet?