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Posted on Sat, Sep 13 2008 18:50
by DZeltner_8282
Joined on Wed, Sep 15 2004, Posts 55
Hi,

Can someone tell me why on earth the software designers of the VSL user Interface programmed their interface to cause Logic 8 unusable without having "EVERY SINGLE TIME" to grab the mouse and click on the arrange page "to bring focus to that window". ARGHHH!

None of my other 3rd party plug ins work this way but VSL! It completely kills work flow, creativity and is super frustrating.

Here's the details:
If I open the VSL interface on a track and start tweaking or choose a sound then hit record on my computer keyboard I get beeped at and then have to reach over, grab the mouse and click on the arrange page to make it active first. Then I can start recording. C'mon! Like I said all my other plug ins let me bring up their interface but I can still control the transport of Logic while this interface is on top without having to click on the arrange page.

Is there a workaround? or can VSL PLEASE FIX THIS!

What are you other guys doing? Even with a two monitor set up I can't seem to make it a pleaseant experience. I've also heard that this issue exists with Digital Performer as well.

Thanks,
Dave
Posted on Sat, Sep 13 2008 20:05
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

Before you castigate VSL, you need to realise why it is the way it is. VSL is not like your other plugs. It doesn't use the memory allocated to Logic. It uses its own memory space. This gives you access to an extra 2.5GB within Logic for VI and another 2.5 for VE. Without this feature you would be stuck with the memory that is left within Logic, and no more. AFAIK in order to have this advantage, the plug needs to work the way it does. Therefore it is not an issue that is needs fixing, but a feature. When it is possible to run a 64bit version of VE in OSX you will be glad of this feature, as it will allow you to access all of the your memory within Logic. When all plugs are 64bit it will become unnecessary.



DG
Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Sat, Sep 13 2008 20:54
by DZeltner_8282
Joined on Wed, Sep 15 2004, Posts 55

Thanks for your response and please know I am not upset ...as with emails tone is often hard to detect :)

Yes I know...but do you honestly think that because the VSL plug is sharing memory (which I do understand and do appreciate) the code could not be writtien for the interface to avoid this "window focus issue" which now disables my ability to control the transport without first having to click on the arrange page evertime?

AFAIK the EXS24 plug shares memory as well...having those EX24 windows up on the screen and active does not disable the transport from being controlled via the computer keyboard.

VSL makes quality products and I have great respect for them.  In my opinion this is a problem that should be addressed (if it can) and is not a feature as it seriously breaks the creative flow when you have to always remember to click on the arrange page before you can start playing after calling up a patch in the interface. 

I would love to hear from a software programmer tell me that what Is being asked for is "over the top",  not possible and why.

In fact if I was beta testing this product I would have said to them:

Guys we have a problem with window focus disabling the transport when using host sequencer packages.... and all these server windows for each instance are eating up a ton of screen real estate.  Is there something we can do?  I would also tell them that many composers would probably like to leave the window open of the user interface so they can see which articulation  is active when recording parts but they still need to control their transport from their keyboard without having to click in the arrange page first.

Dave

Posted on Sat, Sep 13 2008 21:03
by DZeltner_8282
Joined on Wed, Sep 15 2004, Posts 55

 Here's what one guy who may be a programmer states:


I
think VSL programmers can give us the option to keep the interface
window as top most window and the keep the focus to Logic or DP main
window. Assuming they are using Microsoft C++, the TOP_MOST window style could be added to the window styles.


What I use now is to keep VSL UI in the second monitor, but still I need to click inside Logic to activate it.





Posted on Sat, Sep 13 2008 22:21
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

Obviously I can't speak for the programming details about VI/VE because I'm not a programmer, but I do think that anything to do with EXS is irrelevant, as this is one sample player built in to one sequencer on one OS using an xCode hack, and so has very little to do with a cross-platform plug like VI/VE.


FWIW I seem to remember that the VI behaves as a normal plug in Windows XP, and also shares the host memory. VE behaves identically to the way you describe on OSX and does not share the host memory. That is why I think that the behaviour may well be a necessary evil.


Having said all that, it does not bother me in the least, but that is because I never open the VE GUI, as my template is always loaded and routed to the correct channels. I know that this is not possible yet on OSX, as there is no 64bit for cross-platform plugs, but when this changes, it might not be a problem for you either.



DG
Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Sat, Sep 13 2008 23:36
by DZeltner_8282
Joined on Wed, Sep 15 2004, Posts 55

 Hi DG,

Thanks again for the reply. I am really enjoying this discussion and your insight. Thank You!

I see your point but I do recall at one time Logic and its' EXS24 was indeed a cross-platform program for many years.:)  Toontrack offers a cross platform drum plug and the focus window issue is not a problem as well as all the Native Instrument plugs I use.  I belive there are probably alot of others.  I do understand that these plugs do not deal with the ram issue like VSL is doing.

I guess why I used the word frustrated is that  VSL software is of very good quality in all other areas and as I mentioned "I have a great deal of respect for them" but their software also comes with a pretty hefty price tag as well.  I just expect a little better working environment then I am dealing with right now when paying that price.  I have also inquired about this in the past as well and no one from VSL has ever posted "why" this can't be programmed to work... which is also a little dissapointing and makes me wonder if they missed something when developing this. 

In the mid 80's I worked for a company called Ensoniq and we designed samplers for the mass market.  At that time we went in just a couple of years from making 250,000 dollars a year to 30 million. I later worked for Korg for a number of years and was part of the team that presented the M1, Wavestation, T Series and O1W to the world. One thing among many I learned when representing those manufacturers is to listen to customers when they say their creative flow is broken and design products that don't do that!:)

Dave

Posted on Sun, Sep 14 2008 02:14
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5527

DG -

WHy are your posts in BOLD and CAPS?

Of course, maybe you are just that sort of guy, but I can't help wondering.

Posted on Sun, Sep 14 2008 02:27
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5527

...

Posted on Sun, Sep 14 2008 02:38
by DZeltner_8282
Joined on Wed, Sep 15 2004, Posts 55

 Hi DG,

 Sorry for this, I really did not mean to start an argument.  Please accept my sincere apologies.

Once again thanks for the insight and help and I do sincerly apolgize to you if in any way I offended you.

Sorry!

 Dave

Posted on Sun, Sep 14 2008 03:16
by rgames
Joined on Wed, Oct 13 2004, Posts 178
William wrote:
There is no "problem with the user interface."  Except in your mind.

I strongly disagree.  I have had all sorts of trouble with the UI on VE.  It's cost me countless hours of lost time because buttons stop working, or they show up in odd places, and some don't show up at all.  My guess is that there's some sloppy coding behind the way the UI works.
When I added the SE Plus articulations to my SE library, I had to reprogram my ENTIRE template because a bunch of UI buttons quit working when I loaded my old template. 
It's defiinitely buggy.

rgames

Richard G. Ames
Composer - Arranger - Producer
www.rgamesmusic.com
Posted on Sun, Sep 14 2008 04:48
by FredB
Joined on Sat, Apr 01 2006, Montreal, Posts 669
I'm a LOGIC/VSL power user in a professional way and I can confirm that the two level UI thing give me headache every day. Is it the same on Windows? There no way i'm gonna go back to Kontakt cause VI is the best sample playback plugin for doing keyswitching. But there is really a problem with this windows things. I work 10 hours/day with this tool, I'm waiting for longtime that VSL will repair this non-sense.
Excuse my english.
Doc you have all my support! I wish VSL will listen to this.
Fred

Master: Imac I7 32Gb Late 2013 - - OsX 10.13.6
Slave: Corei7 6800k 64gb - Win 10
Soft: Logic X 10.4.4 - ProTools 12.x - VE Pro 6 - VI Pro 2 - MIR
Posted on Sun, Sep 14 2008 08:01
by Emperor
Joined on Tue, Jul 10 2007, Posts 64

I add my voice to the community, this is very annoying problem we suffer every minute. 

As old programmer, I see this problem will not cost VSL development team more than few lines of code to set the focus to the host main window. Please update the tool ASAP and after that see how to solve the problem of the two step UI.

Posted on Sun, Sep 14 2008 08:23
by Emperor
Joined on Tue, Jul 10 2007, Posts 64

DG

Please let one of your programmers share this discussion with us.

We have some suggestions regarding the UI.

Thanks.

Posted on Sun, Sep 14 2008 10:38
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
Emperor wrote:

DG

Please let one of your programmers share this discussion with us.

We have some suggestions regarding the UI.

Thanks.

Huh? I don't have any programmers. What are you talking about?


Ah, I see. You think I work for VSL. Nope, not a chance. They can't afford me. Wink


Look guys, I'm not saying that the current system isn't a problem for you. I'm just trying to point out (within my limited understanding) why it works the way it does.



DG
Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Sun, Sep 14 2008 13:46
by julian
Joined on Fri, Jan 07 2005, UK, Posts 720

 Perhaps if you work with templates the switching between DAW and VI or VE may be less of an issue as you don't have to do it much!

When you have an evolving project that may not suit a straight orchestral line-up so are creating matrixes and patches from scratch then the current set up add a considerable, and at times very frustrating, overhead.

Along with 64 bit support this is right up there as a feature request.

Julian

Posted on Sun, Sep 14 2008 15:51
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5527

Sorry for the previous irritating post - I was myself irritated by the tone of this, as it seems to blame the wrong equipment. 

This has got to be a problem WITH LOGIC because I have never had anything remotely like this happen even once in standalone multiple instance Forte racks. In fact nothing has ever gone wrong with the program at all.

Posted on Sun, Sep 14 2008 16:06
by icgant_7585
Joined on Sat, Jul 31 2004, Posts 29
I agree with Docmidi about this situation, I also find it frustrating using Logic 8 and VI/VE, I also understand what DG is saying ...but I do think that this problem should be dealt with as soon as possible. I know a lot of musicians who are turned off VSL because of this problem...

Cheers Ian
Posted on Sun, Sep 14 2008 18:46
by Emperor
Joined on Tue, Jul 10 2007, Posts 64

DG wrote:
Huh? I don't have any programmers. What are you talking about?

Sorry, I thought you are working for VSL.
Posted on Sun, Sep 14 2008 19:50
by dsstudio
Joined on Sat, Jan 22 2005, California USA, Posts 131

Can I just make a request?

Previous version of the Plug-in, if I open the interface, it take me back in the instruments articulation list [or last edit page] so If I want to change articulation, I don't have to browse/open directory of articulation list again...

For example, If i load patch Solo violin universal, then later I want to add portamento, open the plug in, I wish to have the solo violin directory ready so I just load the portamento next to the legato... don't have to click bunch of arrows...

Current version is NOT, it don't remember where the previous patch I load, please bring it back [or do I missing something]?

thanks

Sonny

Posted on Sun, Sep 14 2008 20:15
by FredB
Joined on Sat, Apr 01 2006, Montreal, Posts 669
William wrote:
This has got to be a problem WITH LOGIC


And DP(and maybe Protools on mac)
Fred

Master: Imac I7 32Gb Late 2013 - - OsX 10.13.6
Slave: Corei7 6800k 64gb - Win 10
Soft: Logic X 10.4.4 - ProTools 12.x - VE Pro 6 - VI Pro 2 - MIR
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