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Non-vibrato with Solo Strings Standard Edition
Last post Fri, Jun 10 2011 by HFI, 19 replies.
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Posted on Tue, Sep 23 2008 16:34
by gr
Joined on Thu, Sep 11 2008, Posts 5

By combining the Vl_perf-legato with Vl_sus_noVib
patches (violin example) in two slots within a matrix cell (xFade on/off; various settings for the respective volume level been tested) there seems to be no way to obtain a non-vibrato-legato, being suitable for ancient music. Is there a way to achieve better results?

Previous postings (http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/p/18413/130343.aspx; http://community.vsl.co....sults.aspx?q=non-vibrato) did not provide any satisfactory answers for my case.

Thanks

gr

Posted on Wed, Sep 24 2008 12:17
by the_visitor
Joined on Tue, Sep 07 2004, London, Posts 8
I find the solo strings library mostly too vibrato heavy for my purposes. So if you have any way round this, I'd like to know it. I recently bought the UVI Ircam instruments collection. Some of these patches, though far more basic in their programming, come closer to the sound I want.

By the way, gr. What do you do about tuning/temperament issues in early music? Is there a way to make the Vienna Instrument play in Valotti, mean tone, just intonation or whatever?
Posted on Wed, Sep 24 2008 13:24
by Conquer
Joined on Thu, Sep 28 2006, Posts 812

Hi both. I don't think that legato non-vibrato is an option since the VSL strings legato samples were all played with vibrato and the non-vibrato samples have no performance legato option. It's a case of 'never the twain shall meet'.

To impose unequal temperament on the VI you could work out the amount of pitch bend required to detune each note to the desired scale and painstakingly add the appropriate pitch bend value note by note to your sequence. Alternatively, record the parts and use Melodyne to sharpen or flatten each note by the requisite amount of cents. This would be made easy if VSL implemented a 'user tuning' page (as found on some synth workstations), but somehow I don't think they will do that. If you can figure out the maths and don't mind doing some fiddly programming, pitch bend is probably your best bet.

Posted on Wed, Sep 24 2008 15:10
by the_visitor
Joined on Tue, Sep 07 2004, London, Posts 8
Well, there is now a Vienna harpsichord. Can it play in historical temperaments or pitch standards?

The whole issue of pitch and temperament will have to be addressed eventually. Some 20th century repertoire (eg Ligeti) also requires microtones.

Since there are cheap and even free VST soft synths that permit user tuning tables, hermode tuning etc, I can't imagine it would be difficult for VSL to write code to make this possible. Let's pester them!
Posted on Wed, Sep 24 2008 16:38
by gr
Joined on Thu, Sep 11 2008, Posts 5

It might indeed be an option to secondarily "plane" the originial vibrato via controls (which I asked for, for sure) or to manipulate outcoming audio files with Melodyne. However, it seems a bit the opposite way one would expect, if a vibrato-free sound is created from a vibrato one.

One should be aware that for string instruments obligate vibrato became "fashionable" not earlier than at the begin of the twenteeth century (sic!). Considering that an increasing community detects the "charm" of earlier playing modes, one might expect, that VI will probably not be confronted the last time here with the request for vibrato-free patches.

Posted on Wed, Sep 24 2008 17:29
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
gr wrote:

One should be aware that for string instruments obligate vibrato became "fashionable" not earlier than at the begin of the twenteeth century (sic!). Considering that an increasing community detects the "charm" of earlier playing modes, one might expect, that VI will probably not be confronted the last time here with the request for vibrato-free patches.

This is perfectly true, but there are other equally important problems to be faced. Certainly for Baroque music, the patches will have to take into account what string is to be used, and also what sort of strings are being played. There is no point it playing at Baroque pitch (whatever that is.....!) with a metal E string.


Of course once you get to the Romantic period, you also have to take into account the fact that only the odd positions were used; not the even ones, so that also affects the portamento which happens as a result of position changing.



DG
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Posted on Wed, Sep 24 2008 19:04
by the_visitor
Joined on Tue, Sep 07 2004, London, Posts 8
And, arguably, it's going back out of fashion now. Steve Reich likes all his instruments and voices to perform essentially non-vibrato. Much of the new, commissioned repertoire of the Kronos Quartet starts from a non-vibrato sound in which vibrato is an occasional variation.
Posted on Mon, Oct 06 2008 03:29
by luces
Joined on Tue, Apr 03 2007, Posts 47

Yep, I too wished that there was a non vib sustain in the Standard Edition. I must admit, this seems like a BIG oversight or a BIG attempt to get me to buy the Extended lib. Either way is disappointing.

luces

Posted on Mon, Oct 06 2008 21:34
by gr
Joined on Thu, Sep 11 2008, Posts 5

Just as a suggestion to VI: in case that the sampling of new sounds as requested for in this thread is considered, it would probably make sense to contact

Concentus Musicus, Wien
http://www.kdschmid.de/deutsch/index.php3?ch=3&p=1orchester.php3?k_id=115&tix=

or even better:

Players in these ensembles know how to realize a high variety of non-vibrato playing modes, and certainly own or utilise a wide range of appropiate instruments.

By the way, it might be meaningful to specify the identity of the instruments used for solo instrument samples in general as it is the case with Boesendorfer piano.

Posted on Mon, Oct 06 2008 22:23
by the_visitor
Joined on Tue, Sep 07 2004, London, Posts 8
I agree. Let's have a complete "Baroque orchestra" set!

I'd love a set of cornetto samples, for Monteverdi and Bach.
Posted on Tue, Oct 28 2008 17:43
by Klaus
Joined on Tue, Oct 22 2002, Munich, Germany, Posts 17
Yeah - please!
Posted on Tue, Oct 28 2008 17:50
by the_visitor
Joined on Tue, Sep 07 2004, London, Posts 8
Anyone doing Early Music (where thy also want gut strings and Baroque bows) need non-vibrato; Anyone into modern repetoire like the Kronos Quartet,Steve Reich's Violin Phase, etc ditto.

I've heard that the Vienna Instrument is based around code from Native Instruments - as in Kontakt etc. If so, a modification for non- equal temperament should be very very easy. Kontakt has dozens of scripts to do this...
Posted on Tue, Oct 28 2008 18:01
by herb
Joined on Mon, Aug 05 2002, Posts 4622
the_visitor_8064 wrote:
I've heard that the Vienna Instrument is based around code from Native Instruments

Not true, where did you hear this? Vienna Instruments are developed exclusively in house by our team.

Maybe you mix it up with the orchestral content Native Instrument has licensed from us for Kontakt?  

best

Herb

Posted on Tue, Oct 28 2008 18:12
by the_visitor
Joined on Tue, Sep 07 2004, London, Posts 8
Oops - sorry Herb. I read it on a NI forum. No disrespect to your own team of coders! Since I've got your attention, can you think about an upgrade to the Vienna Instrument, to permit non-equal temperaments?

Best wishes!
Posted on Wed, Oct 29 2008 14:40
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1748

Let's make a brake with Baroque Music...


http://vsl.co.at/Player2.aspx?Lang=13&DemoId=5092

Perhaps we will get a VSL string orchestra with baroque instruments and with their typical playing styles - once. Smile

It seems that VSL is still working.  Smile

All the best
Beat
www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Wed, Oct 29 2008 20:42
by gr
Joined on Thu, Sep 11 2008, Posts 5

 Congratulations!

Posted on Wed, Mar 04 2009 19:04
by gr
Joined on Thu, Sep 11 2008, Posts 5

Hello Beat Kaufmann,

many thanks for the link to this test file with VSL baroque instruments. It seems that VSL is still working, but does someone know details or have estimates of the release date?

Regards

GR

Posted on Wed, Mar 04 2009 20:48
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1748
gr wrote:

Hello Beat Kaufmann,

... It seems that VSL is still working...

...means that we are still getting new libraries. Or in other words: VSL is still "keeping the ball" - is still going on to produce new libraries.

But whether we will ever get baroque violins/strings or not... who knows that...

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Fri, Jun 10 2011 06:53
by HFI
Joined on Mon, Apr 04 2011, Posts 4
I would like to resurrect this topic.

I'm interested in sustained, non-vibrato patches for solo strings without mutes. The product page is too vague about the contents within the packages. Under the extended library it says "Sustained with progressive, fading, and without vibrato"

Are there different types of sustained, non-vibrato patches?

Does any of the SE libraries for the strings include sustained, non-vibrato patches?

I have no idea what the difference between the "sustained, progressive fading" and "Vl_sus_noVib" are.
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