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Petition for opening Vienna Ensemble to third party VSTs
Last post Tue, Dec 02 2008 by Dietz, 20 replies.
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Posted on Mon, Nov 03 2008 01:03
by astavi
Joined on Thu, Jun 05 2008, Posts 9
Now that FXteleport is pretty much dead, despite the claims of their team (just take a look at the forums - lack of announcements, spam, etc), it'd be great if Vienna Ensemble was opened up to third party VSTs. Maybe it could be included with some sort of [expensive] master FX suite when MIR's released...it'd be a great incentive to buy such a bundle.

Voice your support for this movement by responding to this thread!
Posted on Mon, Nov 03 2008 09:09
by herb
Joined on Mon, Aug 05 2002, Posts 4622

No need for a petition. It's already on our todo list.

best

Herb

Posted on Mon, Nov 03 2008 11:46
by sasha
Joined on Sun, Mar 25 2007, Los Angeles, Posts 59

 WHEN?

Posted on Mon, Nov 03 2008 12:53
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
sasha wrote:

 WHEN?

When it's ready, of course. They have Top Men working on it..................Top Men...!


FWIW I think that there are many more important things that should be addressed soon. Who cares about plugs from other developers. Wink


DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Mon, Nov 03 2008 14:02
by astavi
Joined on Thu, Jun 05 2008, Posts 9
herb wrote:

No need for a petition. It's already on our todo list.

 

best

Herb


YAY! I now love vienna (the company...though the city's pretty cool too :D) more than ever! If I wasn't a student and made six figures a year, I'd so buy the whole orchestra :D


DG -- As far as it not being necessary, well, I doubt that I'm the only one who started off with another sample library. EW's collection made more sense to me at the time as far as bang for the buck was concerned, and I'm still working on buying the vienna libraries. I can't exactly afford to shell out the equivalent of a car (!) on it just yet, and so I'm still using bits and pieces of the other library as I buy the libraries one by one.



Anyways, I totally can't wait! I was originally planning on getting some of those m-audio lightpipe things with MoL, but this is a much cleaner solution. Running everything over a single cable makes things cleaner, and with the latest wireless stuff, you could potentially put your slave PC in another room entirely. Great for those of us whose setup isn't exactly silent :D
Posted on Mon, Nov 03 2008 22:36
by info_9427
Joined on Thu, Nov 04 2004, Posts 57

Excellent! This is among the best news for a while! I'm so glad I will finally be able to stop waiting for FX Teleport 2. Will the new Vienna Ensemble be able to run 32-bit third party plugins with 64-bit memory addressing the way VE3 is running Vienna Instruments? Will it support multiple outputs for a single instrument? It's going to be cross-platform, right?

Posted on Tue, Nov 04 2008 18:36
by muziksculp
Joined on Fri, Oct 03 2003, U.S.A., Posts 431
Wow ! VE3 that can host 3rd party VST/AU, with 64-bit support on both Mac and PC platforms, I'm sure the release date would be a "Very big, and quite a revolutionary event" !



When will it be ready ? ........ That's the million $ Question.



OK... would mid 2009 be unrealistic... or close ?



Being on the to do list, does not mean it is currently in development, hopefully VSL will start development in the very near future.






Posted on Wed, Nov 05 2008 23:41
by info_9427
Joined on Thu, Nov 04 2004, Posts 57

muziksculp wrote:
OK... would mid 2009 be unrealistic... or close ?
Why would Herb mention it if it was half a year from now? I'm hoping it's a lot sooner. I'm also hoping that the most essential features of the Vienna Ensemble will work with third party plugins. For me those are the 64-bit memory addressing and background loading. Loading my two 64-bit 8 gig slaves fully and simultaneously is just a dream come true. This way even adding more slaves wouldn't increase the loading time. Some kind of trick to keep stuff in memory while changing the DAW project would really blow my mind. Cool

Posted on Thu, Nov 06 2008 02:54
by Jack Weaver
Joined on Sat, Mar 27 2004, Tucson, AZ, Posts 391

 info_9427 said - 'Why would Herb mention it if it was half a year from now?

Well Herb did announce the new choirs at this time of the year in 2006 (yes, 2006) to be delivered in 2008. He's still technically correct. 

Also, I do want to add that several people are assuming what this new product will be and what features it will have seeminly based on what they need at this moment or they would like to have. Herb hasn't really defined it yet. So I wouldn't be too creative in self-describing what it will be - unless you want to set yourself up for disillusionment.  

 Is there a party-pooper smiley?

Mac Master:
2010 Mac Pro 12-core. 3.46GHz, 64 GB RAM, OSX 10.12.3, Logic Pro X 10.3.1 ,VEP5, SSD system drive, etc.

PC Slave:
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Posted on Thu, Nov 06 2008 15:53
by info_9427
Joined on Thu, Nov 04 2004, Posts 57

Jack Weaver wrote:
Also, I do want to add that several people are assuming what this new product will be and what features it will have seeminly based on what they need at this moment or they would like to have. Herb hasn't really defined it yet. So I wouldn't be too creative in self-describing what it will be - unless you want to set yourself up for disillusionment.
There are questions and wishes in this thread but I can't see any assuming. Then again it should be safe to assume that VE4 (or what ever it will be called) will include the essential features that make VE2 and VE3 unique.

Posted on Thu, Nov 06 2008 16:27
by Jack Weaver
Joined on Sat, Mar 27 2004, Tucson, AZ, Posts 391

 Hi info_9427,

Yes, it's clear that what ever VSL comes up with will be ground-breaking. I remember when Vienna Instruments first came out. It changed everyone's conception of what was possible. 

VSL always has a way of  transcending our expectations. Please note how quiet they have been throughtout this whole year. Something is clearly going on. 

My remark, perhaps poorly crafted, was to say that even though whatever VSL announces will be amazing that it may not be in perfect alignment with everyone's preconception of what the product should be. 

Mac Master:
2010 Mac Pro 12-core. 3.46GHz, 64 GB RAM, OSX 10.12.3, Logic Pro X 10.3.1 ,VEP5, SSD system drive, etc.

PC Slave:
12-core e5650, 48 GB RAM, Win7, MIR Pro/VEP5, SSD system drive
Posted on Thu, Nov 06 2008 19:41
by skatz
Joined on Thu, Mar 20 2008, Posts 22

One question I have that maybe current Vienna Ensemble users could answer is how well does VE currently make use of multiple CPUs? This will obviously be a big factor in overall performance. 

Mac Pro Late 2013 12x2.7
64GB RAM
MacOS 10.14.3
Logic 10.4.4
RME Multiface
Posted on Fri, Nov 07 2008 12:09
by MS
Joined on Wed, Feb 19 2003, Vienna, Austria, Posts 1760
VE currently uses multiple threads for disk streaming, but a single thread for processing and mixing. We have recently introduced multithreading for the mixing part, which will be available with the next update.
--
Martin Saleteg
Software Developer
Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH
Posted on Fri, Nov 07 2008 15:12
by info_9427
Joined on Thu, Nov 04 2004, Posts 57

Jack Weaver wrote:
My remark, perhaps poorly crafted, was to say that even though whatever VSL announces will be amazing that it may not be in perfect alignment with everyone's preconception of what the product should be. 

That's generally true but in this case there are some extra guidelines to help VSL to make a product that will satisfy most people. I mean FX Teleport and the unfulfilled promises for the version 2. What people have been waiting for years from FX-T are cross-platform support, 64-bit memory addressing, loading the slaves simultaneously instead of one at a time and keeping the samples in memory when switching projects. The last one requires some extra work but the rest is already implemented in VE3.

Right now I can think of only one extra feature which would also solve the project switching problem. It would be perfect if the VE could be sort of disconnected from the DAW. I mean that the VE would operate just like hardware MIDI and audio connections to a hardware sampler. The DAW should see tons of MIDI ports going into and audio ports coming from the VE and happily send MIDI and be ready to receive audio even if none of the slaves was online. This would serve several purposes:

1. The users could switch projects on the DAW without having to reload anything on the slaves.

2. The DAW could crash and be up again in a minute as the slaves wouldn't need to reload. Any slave could crash and everything else would work while the slave reloads.

3. This would allow modular templates. I would like to build and maintain a single 'super-template' which would contain absolutely everything I own and then just use parts of it when the whole thing isn't needed. I would begin working on a new project by loading the super-template to my DAW but I would then start slaves only when needed. The DAW would see all the MIDI and audio connections and have tracks ready for all instruments (sorted into folder tracks) but I wouldn't have to load every instrument. The idea could be taken further by changing the structure of the VE so that the user wouldn't load things into separate VE instances but only communicate with a single VE software which would be split into blocks internally. I could build a choir block, a brass block, drum block and so on and I would just select which blocks I'm going to need in the current project. The super-template could contain a lot more stuff than the slaves can load simultaneously. I'm not suggesting any kind of dynamic allocation of the slaves as that would require years to build. The slaves would still be used in the traditional way so that the user would only install the choir library and build the choir block on one slave and so on. It would also be a lot easier to update older projects. If the user would
for example buy a new library he or she wouldn't need to manually add it to every project but just do it once.

Most people using FX Teleport or VE3 build and use templates anyway and there's room for thinking out of the box as the current solutions concentrate on the single DAW project while the real challenges in a professional workflow are between projects: loading, programming, handling crashes and such. Of course this kind of behaviour could be selectable so that people who prefer the old behaviour could keep working that way.

Posted on Fri, Nov 07 2008 15:24
by astavi
Joined on Thu, Jun 05 2008, Posts 9
I totally second that idea of VE acting like a hardware audio/midi connection. I'd already be using that kind of setup if not for the cost - $1300-$2000 to move some sounds about three feet? Really?!
Posted on Fri, Nov 07 2008 16:56
by skatz
Joined on Thu, Mar 20 2008, Posts 22

Interesting. Thanks for the information. However, I'm not sure I totally understand disk streaming vs. processing in this context. If VE is already scaling to multiple threads for streaming of samples, what is being reserved for a single CPU... DSP?

 

With the introduction of the i7s (Nehalem) coming our way this year, and Intel's push towards CPU multiplying, it seems like the first audio guys who really tackle the problem of multi-CPU scaling will have a tremendous hit on their hands.  With Tascam out of the picture (and their final product still limited to a single CPU), it seems like the ball is definitely in your court. I'm really looking forward to seeing where this goes.

Mac Pro Late 2013 12x2.7
64GB RAM
MacOS 10.14.3
Logic 10.4.4
RME Multiface
Posted on Sat, Nov 08 2008 17:24
by MS
Joined on Wed, Feb 19 2003, Vienna, Austria, Posts 1760
thamesonfire wrote:

Interesting. Thanks for the information. However, I'm not sure I totally understand disk streaming vs. processing in this context. If VE is already scaling to multiple threads for streaming of samples, what is being reserved for a single CPU... DSP?

 

DSP, the VE mixer, effects processing etc.

 

thamesonfire wrote:

With the introduction of the i7s (Nehalem) coming our way this year, and Intel's push towards CPU multiplying, it seems like the first audio guys who really tackle the problem of multi-CPU scaling will have a tremendous hit on their hands. 

We are aware of Intel's roadmap and as I mentioned in an earlier post, an upcoming VE update will enable to spread processing to as many cores as you wish.


--
Martin Saleteg
Software Developer
Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH
Posted on Sun, Nov 09 2008 20:03
by luces
Joined on Tue, Apr 03 2007, Posts 47
herb wrote:

No need for a petition. It's already on our todo list.

best

Herb

Stick out tongue

VSL,will you marry me? Wink

luces

Posted on Tue, Dec 02 2008 17:03
by mertboru
Joined on Tue, Dec 02 2008, Posts 1
herb wrote:

No need for a petition. It's already on our todo list.

best

Herb



Oh God, the best thing I've heard for so long!

Since it is already mentioned at http://www.filmmusicmag.com/?p=2051
I hope it will be released soon... Very soon ;-)

Kind Regards,
Mert
Posted on Tue, Dec 02 2008 17:28
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7729
mertboru wrote:
Oh God, the best thing I've heard for so long! [...]

:-D .... thanks for that, Mart - one of the most friendly "First Messages" ever!
/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
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