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Music Pre-Mix/Final Mix
Last post Mon, Jan 12 2009 by Simsy, 17 replies.
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Posted on Fri, Dec 19 2008 15:20
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 8105
I'll happily host this discussion here, but I want to make sure that there is a fundamental agreement amongst all participants.


- We talk about _options_ here, not ultimate truth. Please allow for different opinions and solutions.


- It is clear to all of us that a good piece of music, a good arrangement and good programming are the basis for a good mix. No need to put emphasis on this fact again.


- It is clear to all of us that there is no thing like the "Magic Better-Button" - the one plugin that makes everything sound "good". Straight-forward, "proper" engineering is the basis for "special tricks", not the other way 'round.


- Please no digital vs. analogue discussion.


... I write this to make clear that I won't tolerate any flamewars here, even though the topic asks for them. 8-)


Thanks for your understanding!
/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Tue, Dec 23 2008 00:06
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 8105
vibrato wrote:
[...] I dont want to spend money on this and later find out that MIR has released on15th Jan. [...]

The Vienna Suite will complement MIR. It's not a question of either/or. :-)
/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Tue, Dec 23 2008 11:29
by bluejay
Joined on Fri, Jul 07 2006, UK, Posts 49

Hi Tanuj,

I have been using the Vienna Suite a lot recently. I love the presets for the Epic Horns and the strings, they sound wonderful.

In terms of production, I use around 11 instances of Altiverb for positioning combined with VSL Power Panning (and Waves S1 for non-VSL instruments). I do a lot of EQ-ing generally, mostly to remove a lot of low-frequencies that build up when instruments are recorded close-miked (the proximity effect).

One thing that worked for me is to realise that samples are not instruments and Altiverb is not reality. You have to work with samples and convolution reverbs as they are and rules that apply to real instruments recorded in a real space often do not work with samples.

Anyway, I often use Nomad Factory's D82 Sonic Maximizer on my final mix to add some sheen. I usually limit with Waves L1. For an example of this kind of mix check out Epic Journey on my website (http://www.jamessemple.com/music.php). Although there are some live instruments on it there's a lot of VSL on there.

James
Posted on Thu, Dec 25 2008 10:51
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 8105
Interesting thoughts, Tanuj!
vibrato wrote:

 Bluejay ,

 

Thanks for sharing your ideas. You use 11 Altiverbs??? Thats quite a lot....I was thinking of reducing my Altiverbs.


That's a good idea as long as you are talking about switching from inserted AltiVerbs to a (more common) Aux-Send scheme. If someone's using AltiVerb's stage-positioning features, then there's nothing wrong with 11 or more instances (... apart from the fact that I absolutely dislike the results of this very feature - as much as I think that AltiVerb is a great plugin in general).
vibrato wrote:
Also I was reading through some interviews and Patricia Sullivan Fourstar (She has mastered some of John Williams stuff - Catch me if you can, Harry potter, Star wars Episode I etc) said that she would sometimes upsample the music mix to 88.2 or higher and then use her EQ or whatever processing - and then downsample it again. 

 

This process apparently can add some space and air to the mix. This is also something Dietz had mentioned earlier to me when I had asked similar questions.



Just to make something clear: This is one of the "tricks" I mentioned earlier. While it _could_ make a great production even better (assuming you have state-of-the-art sample-rate converters), the effect on a "so-so" production will be negligible. IOW: It may be your smallest problem wether you stay in 44.1 or resample everything to 88.2 - just for EQing.
vibrato wrote:
I was told that while samples already recorded at 44.1 - will not benefit from upsampling (For obvious reasons) but EQ's and Reverbs will benefit.

I think you mix up some things here.


Our samples were recorded in 96 kHz, and they never leave that format throughout the whole editing process, until they are exported for mapping within the Vienna Instrument. _Here_ they are stored in 44.1 kHz, that's true.

vibrato wrote:
[...] The low end is mostly the problem. Highs and mids can mostly be fixed. Getting the right low end if a problem I face a lot - actually also the mids. 

 

Cutting things off between 240 and 280 does make it sound better. Also around 500 Hz is a good idea. Below 30-35 can go depending on what frequencies the music mix has. 

All very valid thoughts. The problem is that while this will help a lot as long as you want to push an instrument away from you (acoustically), those are exacty the frequencies you will perceive as "intimacy" or "warmth" when you aim for a chamber-music-like setting. There is no rule that fits all situations.


Best,
/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Mon, Dec 29 2008 10:30
by bluejay
Joined on Fri, Jul 07 2006, UK, Posts 49
Dietz wrote:
If someone's using AltiVerb's stage-positioning features, then there's nothing wrong with 11 or more instances (... apart from the fact that I absolutely dislike the results of this very feature

Oh, thanks Dietz...   Wink
To be honest I've found this to be the only way to add some "distance" to very bright and close samples of instruments that should be at the back of the hall (such as brass). I agree that the results could be better. Do you recommend a different way of doing this or do you tend to prefer a brighter and closer sound?
regards

James

James
Posted on Wed, Dec 31 2008 09:02
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 8105
Uh - were did I write "discount"? ... 8-/ ... What I'm trying to say is: Vienna Suite and Vienna MIR are two independent products which complement each other very well.


I don't know much about Herb's plans for discounts and the like, though. ;-)


HTH,
/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Wed, Dec 31 2008 11:15
by herb
Joined on Mon, Aug 05 2002, Posts 4622

MIR will be defenitely not an upcoming additional reverb plugin for the Vienna Suite.

I've talked about a kind of "regular" reverb.

best

Herb

Posted on Wed, Dec 31 2008 19:49
by clarkcontrol
Joined on Mon, May 03 2004, The Pagan Underground, Posts 315
I find that panning (using the Dir mixer in Logic) has given me a tremendous sense of space (especially as it pertains to doublings). In fact, I made this a part of my template immediately after first using a panner that could narrow the spread. Things like reverb and eq are so much easier to predict and control when the sound source is more like a 'real' orchestral recording. As a result, I hardly use compression--maybe on the 2bus if the dynamics are too wide. ---Clark
Clark
Posted on Wed, Dec 31 2008 20:06
by clarkcontrol
Joined on Mon, May 03 2004, The Pagan Underground, Posts 315
Also, I'll put a room verb on each track BEFORE the Dir mixer to push the instrument back. So the signal chain for each instrument is: EQ, big room, Dir mixer, aux send to space designer. Not scientific, I know, but it mixes better with stuff like project sam, etc.---Clark
Clark
Posted on Sun, Jan 11 2009 20:50
by Banquo
Joined on Sat, Apr 09 2005, Dublin, Ireland, Posts 395

I say we hear how Dietz mixes! Admit it, they're always pretty damn good...

Posted on Mon, Jan 12 2009 09:07
by Simsy
Joined on Mon, May 21 2007, Posts 385

Hi

I have been going through the same thoughts lately. So I thought I would chime in with my next plan!! I use altiverb for the placement and then have 4 altiverbs on sends for depth. I also add a little  artifical reverb with my TC Powercore card using the VSS3 reverb plugin. But I was planning on selling the powercore card and moving to an external hardware reverb unit, like a lexicon.

What are peoples thoughts on hardware reverb compared to plugins?

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