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Reverb and predelay (noob question)
Last post Fri, Jan 09 2009 by Banquo, 9 replies.
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Posted on Tue, Jan 06 2009 00:00
by Banquo
Joined on Sat, Apr 09 2005, Dublin, Ireland, Posts 395
How much predelay do you put on for how much reverb and distance from the front? I know this will differ person to person...
Posted on Tue, Jan 06 2009 10:10
by bluejay
Joined on Fri, Jul 07 2006, UK, Posts 49

I generally use somewhere between 35 - 60 ms. I keep this fairly standard front-to-back but I alter according to taste (i.e. try modifying the amount and listening again).

I got this from the book Mixing Audio where the author reminds us that samples and convolution reverb do not behave like reality (and so trying to model them that way often causes problems). For instance Early Reflections from a convolution reverb "interfere" with the original signal whereas in real life where should (in a good ambient space) blend with the original signal.

So ... I treat them like signals with reverbs and delays and use those rules to guide me. Anything much less than 30ms and you can get phasing problems, anything above 80 ms and it will start sounding like a separate signal (i.e. like a delay rather than a reverb).

In reality the predelays should be shorter but as I said, ERs from convolution reverbs will cause comb-filtering that wouldn't happen in the real world.

I hope this is useful but I'm sure others will disagree with me on this and have a completely different way of doing things.

James
Posted on Tue, Jan 06 2009 20:37
by Carl
Joined on Fri, Jan 07 2005, USA, Posts 111

This works in my case..I use a lower PD value for the back & larger value for front along with seperate ER & tail busses for sections ( brasses/ ww / perc, some with start delay) for distancing.

Also try narrowing  an instruments stereo field to create distance.

Posted on Wed, Jan 07 2009 00:21
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1788

 

Robert Munnelly wrote:
How much predelay do you put on for how much reverb and distance from the front? I know this will differ person to person...

Hi Robert

Theory

As you know, the "predelay" is the time between the dry signal and the arriving of the very

first reflected signal of a wall, the ceiling, or what ever.

Our ears and our brain tell us:

The longer the delay time (difference between the direct signal and the first reflections)

the larger the room, the hall.

So this parameter "predelay" allows us to extend the room impression a bit. 

A side effect is, that we can enhance the "depth impression" as well even if we

really adjust the distance between "us" and the closest wall so to say. 

If the pre delay time is > 60 - 80ms we can make out echos - and thats no more

a natural reverb.

BTW: 80ms means, that the closest wall is in a distance of 26m > that's very far... 

Really depths you mainly will get by balancing the dry/wet paramenter.

The result( depth) of all these adjustments can only checked with speakers.

Further: It all depends on the selected Hall or IR-Impulse. So it is difficult to give

exact figures in general here.

The only advice: Try to find your "distance" by adjusting all the parameters and by

keeping the predelay within 0 - 60 ms. Smile

Have also a look in the free trial part of my tutorial 

Regards

Beat Kaufmann

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Wed, Jan 07 2009 01:44
by Rob Elliott
Joined on Sun, Feb 02 2003, Salt Lake City, UT, Posts 1659

Hey Carl (and Beat) - maybe I have this backwards but I have been using the following to decent results

45-50ms Strings

60 ms WW's

72-77 ms Brass/Perc

Have each of these stems on seperate busses to work with wet/dry ratios - BUT would you flip these PD's?

Rob

what would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail?
Posted on Wed, Jan 07 2009 08:43
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 8173
The problem with most "simple" pre-delay concepts is that they leave out the fact that there is almost always a wall in the closest vicinity of an instrument: The floor. In reality this means that there almost never is a "real" pre-delay, but a more or less smooth build-up to the reverb trail, with a (maybe) distinctive peak as soon as the soundwaves have reached a very reflective obstacle.
/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Wed, Jan 07 2009 09:09
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1788

 

Dietz wrote:
The problem with most "simple" pre-delay concepts is that they leave out the fact that there is almost always a wall in the closest vicinity of an instrument: The floor. In reality this means that there almost never is a "real" pre-delay...

Correct - Nevertheless...

The very first reflections from the floor you get after 3-4ms. But then it's quit until the very first reflections from the next closest surfaces will reach your ears...

As Dietz mentioned:

It's a very complex matter in reality. On the other side: We are speking about reverb effects which are trying to simulate a listening situation. So the pragmatic advise again: Try to vary all the parameters of the certain reverb plugin until you get the result you are searching for... with speakers.

Best

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Wed, Jan 07 2009 15:26
by Rob Elliott
Joined on Sun, Feb 02 2003, Salt Lake City, UT, Posts 1659

 Thanks Dietz and Beat.  Let me try flipping my PD on the busses to 'hear' the results.

All the best,

Rob

what would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail?
Posted on Fri, Jan 09 2009 13:24
by Banquo
Joined on Sat, Apr 09 2005, Dublin, Ireland, Posts 395
Again, by far the most helpful forum.

Thank you all!


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