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Konzerthaus Organ User Interface
Last post Fri, Sep 24 2010 by kamczak, 64 replies.
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Posted on Sun, May 17 2009 13:36
by clemenshaas
Joined on Sat, Dec 01 2007, Cologne, Germany, Posts 119

you are absolutely right, DG, and the way i use konzerthaus organ right now is just about how you described above (using multiple instances of vi). i say it again: everything is possible. (lemur is a great gadget, but not a real bargain)

you are also right with this setup being kind of complicated, that´s why i would prefer to have all stops loaded into just one instance (per manual) of vi (as i described; a checkbox "make all matrix cells parallel cells" would be needed, plus enabling/disabling of individual cells via keyswitch or other controller data: this would be a no-cost-one-touch-solution).

Posted on Sun, May 17 2009 13:48
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

 Ah, no-cost. Well that's a different ball game. Wink


Have you tried using a few instances of VE rather than multiple instances of VI?


DG


Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Sun, May 17 2009 18:34
by Migot
Joined on Sun, Apr 01 2007, Quebec, Canada, Posts 285

DG,

With respect...

I think that "few instances" would means one instance per organ Division not more.

One for Swell -manual I

One fro Great -manual II

One for Choir -manual III

One for Pedal

But if you need 6 stops for manual I and you have to manage 2 vi limited to 3 stops each...

It is really disturbing !

I know you will tel me to use Predefined Matrix...

They are well done and useful for existing music until Romantic time but lets try to manage

Messiean organ works with that... a tremendous work....

you will have to use many Multiple-instances for each manual and pedal to achieve what it is asked...

it is not the nature of Organ as Instrument.

Again VSL team did every thing possible to make a Violin manageable.

We are asking the same for their fabulous Pipe Organ...

It is really less complicated

Are we asking to much? I do not think so !

Sicerely

Alain LeBlond
Composer born in 1957

Mac Pro (early 2009) 5.1
2 x 2.26 GHz Quad-Core, 32 Go
Mac OS 10.9.5

Dorico, Notion5, DP 8, Finale 2012,
-VSL, SE Complete Bundle, SE Synchronized, Ve Pro, Vi Pro, MIRx
Roland A-88 keyboard
Posted on Mon, May 18 2009 03:57
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5640

.

Posted on Mon, May 18 2009 09:06
by clemenshaas
Joined on Sat, Dec 01 2007, Cologne, Germany, Posts 119
DG wrote:

 Ah, no-cost. Well that's a different ball game. Wink


Have you tried using a few instances of VE rather than multiple instances of VI?


DG

no-cost AND one-touch, and one instance.

don´t you think my suggestion would improve vi (for use of the organ, and not affecting other libraries at all)?

vsl wisely thought of a parallel cell, say for adding some staccato attack to other patches, although this could easily be done with an additional instance of vi, too. a very similar thing i suggest here, that´s all.

using ve would probably slightly improve or de-complicate my arrange window in logic, but unfortunately logic crashes instantely when i try to instanciate.

thanks for trying to help, DG, and i expressely do not talk to you when i wonder why some people use this forum as a debating club rather than a forum. 

i am only trying to improve the vi interface to the best of all users. vi (and konzerthaus organ) is great, but still can be improved, and i think this is an important part of what this forum is for. other users of konzerthaus organ seem to share my wishes, and i can see no reason why they should be attacked and insulted for that, or for not knowing that there could be some workaround or the other. 

Posted on Mon, May 18 2009 12:50
by cm
Joined on Fri, Dec 20 2002, vienna, Posts 9116

clemenshaas wrote:
vsl changed your sacred user interface drom bösendorfer imperial to vienna imperial

please consider:

a) an organ is not a piano (i.e. there are more than 3 pedals beside the keyboard to manipulate sound)

b) vienna imperial has a dedicated streaming engine *)and some more additional functions, so creating a dedicated GUI was more or less necessary.

 

*) the VI engine would not have been capable seriously handling 100 velocities across 96 keys

christian

and remember: a CRAY is the only computer that runs an endless loop in just four hours ...
Posted on Mon, May 18 2009 13:18
by clemenshaas
Joined on Sat, Dec 01 2007, Cologne, Germany, Posts 119
cm wrote:
clemenshaas wrote:
vsl changed your sacred user interface drom bösendorfer imperial to vienna imperial

please consider:

a) an organ is not a piano (i.e. there are more than 3 pedals beside the keyboard to manipulate sound)

b) vienna imperial has a dedicated streaming engine *)and some more additional functions, so creating a dedicated GUI was more or less necessary.

*) the VI engine would not have been capable seriously handling 100 velocities across 96 keys

christian

i was always wondering how those guys from steinway managed to put all those pipes into my little grand... 

joking aside, i did not intend to ask you to put the organ samples into the imperial interface.

what i meant is: different needs (instruments) may require different GUIs. so we speak with one voice in this point. (a rose is a rose is a rose, but an organ is not a piano, not a violin, not an oboe)

Posted on Mon, May 18 2009 13:56
by cm
Joined on Fri, Dec 20 2002, vienna, Posts 9116

 i understood - it was just to have the point of *GUI design different from bösendorfer to Imperial* covered ...

of course to have a dedicated organ GUI would be very nice, but i fear this would also require a dedicated engine, in other words it wouldn't be possible to put just a new *skin* over the VI/VE engine ... (same goes with percussions IMO)

 

well, at least our developers know what to do 2015 in case until then they're bored to death ... ;-)

christian

and remember: a CRAY is the only computer that runs an endless loop in just four hours ...
Posted on Mon, May 18 2009 14:21
by ct1961
Joined on Sat, Dec 15 2007, Posts 438

Not your day, is it Clemens?

It doesn't look like you'll get your dedicated Konzerthaus interface and you can't run the Imperial on your G5. Go for third time lucky and ask them when the Super Symphonic Summer Sale is scheduled to begin. Seems like such a long time since the last one. Big Smile

Colin

Posted on Mon, May 18 2009 14:48
by clemenshaas
Joined on Sat, Dec 01 2007, Cologne, Germany, Posts 119

christian, i do not think it would be necessary to build a totally new organ interface from scratch. maybe you also read my suggestions i posted earlier. the implementation of my so-called "force-all-matrix-cells-to-parallel-cells-checkbox" and enabling/disabling of individual cells via midi controller would absolutely do the job.

i really don´t need any fancy skins or graphical representations of "zugriegel". i just would like to have more intuitive access to the stops.

or did you mean that the current vi is not capable of playing more than - say for example - 100 streams (10 sounding keys/pedals multiplied by 10 stops) simultaneously? then this is a different "game of ball" (quoting DG).

Posted on Mon, May 18 2009 14:49
by clemenshaas
Joined on Sat, Dec 01 2007, Cologne, Germany, Posts 119
ct1961 wrote:

Not your day, is it Clemens?

It doesn't look like you'll get your dedicated Konzerthaus interface and you can't run the Imperial on your G5. Go for third time lucky and ask them when the Super Symphonic Summer Sale is scheduled to begin. Seems like such a long time since the last one. Big Smile

Colin

it is never my day...

seems like i have to buy a ****ing pc. 

Posted on Mon, May 18 2009 15:36
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5640

.

Posted on Mon, May 18 2009 15:57
by clemenshaas
Joined on Sat, Dec 01 2007, Cologne, Germany, Posts 119

thanks for the lesson in etymology, william. may i introduce myself: clemens. (the artist formerly known as "this person" or "this guy").

i always thought "forum" was a latin (roman) word and not a greek, but as this is not the etymology-thread...

i would prefer talking quietly about issues of the konzerthaus organ (and come to some sort of conclusion) than arguing around, even if the greek (or the romans) had fun with it in he forum romanum (or the forum graecum). i apologize for my lack of historical tradition. 

Posted on Mon, May 18 2009 17:27
by cm
Joined on Fri, Dec 20 2002, vienna, Posts 9116

clemenshaas wrote:
did you mean that the current vi is not capable of playing more than - say for example - 100 streams
this is more (if not at all) a question of polyphony rather than data streams - as everywhere more polyphony means more CPU load, and especially a piano can stress polyphony a lot (say runs over the full range with sustain and/or release samples on).

 

if i'm not wrong the default polyphony in VI is 64 but can be set up to 256 (be aware this setting would need a more reliable machine than the default value) - i can imagine playing an organ with 100 streams can be done on any average system.

christian

and remember: a CRAY is the only computer that runs an endless loop in just four hours ...
Posted on Mon, May 18 2009 19:53
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5640

.

Posted on Tue, May 19 2009 07:51
by clemenshaas
Joined on Sat, Dec 01 2007, Cologne, Germany, Posts 119

christian, sorry if i insist.

from what you say, it seems polyphony or data streams are not a bottleneck.

as i´m not a programmer, i have no idea how deep into the code vsl had to go to implement my suggestions. but as it is "just" a little checkbox and muting of cells, i hope it would be a piece of cake. 

a small step for vsl, but a giant heap for organists.

Posted on Tue, May 19 2009 08:28
by cm
Joined on Fri, Dec 20 2002, vienna, Posts 9116

you're welcome, clemens!

though i sometimes ask our developers for changes please understand they have a very strict roadmap speaking about the wishlist vs. the available time.

especially now, having VE PRO and MIR on the current schedule, is not the best moment to add something to the features list, actually some desirable options have to be postponed now and then.

 

i personally think your idea is interesting - though not 100% clear to me - and i promise to discuss them in a private moment.

what i can say for sure is that even adding tiny elements to a GUI is often tricky and though maybe not a big deal (programatically) sometimes a pile of work counting out pixels and not canibalizing the other elements.

christian

and remember: a CRAY is the only computer that runs an endless loop in just four hours ...
Posted on Tue, May 19 2009 08:47
by clemenshaas
Joined on Sat, Dec 01 2007, Cologne, Germany, Posts 119

christian, that´s all i ask for. i´m aware that your programmers don´t sit around bored waiting for some nerd´s freakish wishes.

when you feel the time has come to knock on the developers´ door, please feel free to contact me again, i´m sure i´ll make my idea 100% clear to you in no time.

thanks, clemens

Posted on Sat, Dec 26 2009 00:37
by badibeat
Joined on Thu, Jan 15 2009, Posts 17
Bach was a sticker for new technology and might have wanted an organ featuring velocity if it was possible (of course it would have to be well tempered, too). This is the one thing I really miss about Konzerthaus Organ: The dynamic range (DYN.R.) parameter of the patches can not be altered from 0 to something else, preventing me from adding MIDI note-on velocity to the sound. That's what I want much more than a GUI.
Posted on Mon, Feb 01 2010 16:00
by Jann
Joined on Sat, Jan 18 2003, Posts 50

It's been a while since this thread came up, so I was wondering if any plans have been made for the development of perhaps a dedicated engine and user interface for the Konzerthaus organ.

And by the way, has VSL ever considered licensing such a dedicated engine to third party developers?

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