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Sibelius Dynamics
Last post Wed, Apr 08 2009 by andi, 20 replies.
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Posted on Thu, Jan 29 2009 07:10
by aptmusic
Joined on Fri, Nov 14 2008, Portland, Posts 239
Just got VE running with Sib 5.2.5. I'd like to know what I can do to change the way VE is processing the dynamics. The dynamic range is huge and its difficult to blend instruments even with using the mixer in both VE and Sibelius. Also does any one have any recommendations for what presets are good with epicVerb and Classic Reverb? Any panning data I can use for a full orchestra?
Core i7 3930k - 64GB RAM - W7 Pro on 240GB Neutron SSD - RME HDSPe AIO - OCZ RevoDrive 120GB - Crucial RealSSD 256GB - 8 x HDD - Motif XS8 - Focal Solo 6 Be - Cubase 6 - Sibelius 6.2 - VE PRO - QL Spaces - Altiverb 6 - Hollywood Series - SC - SD2 - EWQL Pianos - MOR - Requiem Choir - VSL SE+ - Symphobia 1 and 2 - True Strike
Posted on Tue, Feb 03 2009 12:42
by Leif Erikson Sundstrup
Joined on Sat, Oct 25 2003, Australia, Posts 93

 Hi,

I am having the same problem.

I have changed the dynamic pitch from 0-100 in 'cell edit' and it does not make much difference. It may have something to do with the combination of velocity, volume, and expression that Sibelius sends to VI.

I hope we get some help soon as it is probably a simple task to fix, but I am bamboozeled by it.

Leif

Leif Sundstrup
Posted on Wed, Feb 04 2009 10:46
by andi
Joined on Wed, Feb 18 2004, Vienna, Posts 3523

You can alter the Dynamic Range of every cell with Edit Cell/Dyn.R. The higher the value, the higher is the dynamic range. You can also adjust the volume of the cells with the volume slider underneath.

Andi

Andreas Olszewski
Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Thu, Feb 05 2009 19:45
by dmangiardi
Joined on Mon, May 19 2008, London, UK, Posts 1

I had great results with playback on sib..I originally used vienna special editions, but then one day it just was not working. So I was advised to download the new Vienna Ensemle (different interface) and now things are playing back which are not even written. For example, I had a whole note in the cello and it plays back in 8th notes..... Also the dynamics are all over the place and I am not able to control an overall even sound output. The dynamics in Sibelus are over exagerated and I am forced to put F to MF.... just for playback purposes.

There seems to be something terribly wrong with Vienna Ensembe. I prefered the Vienna instruments...

Does anyone know why it changed and if there is some kind of problem with playback configurations. I have a mac 0sx 10.5.5

Posted on Thu, Feb 05 2009 20:01
by aptmusic
Joined on Fri, Nov 14 2008, Portland, Posts 239
the dictionary in sibelius is your most important tool. its probably playing the wrong patch for your note. maybe try loading the default house style in sibelius. theres a chance you screwed up the default dictionary.
Core i7 3930k - 64GB RAM - W7 Pro on 240GB Neutron SSD - RME HDSPe AIO - OCZ RevoDrive 120GB - Crucial RealSSD 256GB - 8 x HDD - Motif XS8 - Focal Solo 6 Be - Cubase 6 - Sibelius 6.2 - VE PRO - QL Spaces - Altiverb 6 - Hollywood Series - SC - SD2 - EWQL Pianos - MOR - Requiem Choir - VSL SE+ - Symphobia 1 and 2 - True Strike
Posted on Thu, Feb 05 2009 20:26
by usagymboy
Joined on Thu, Sep 20 2007, London, England, Posts 3

I am having the same problem:  when I play back from Sibelius and watch the perormance tab in VE I see that both the expression bar and the velocity bar are moving for each note.  I have no idea where VSL is getting instructions to make controller changes.  I am certainly not inputting Controller 11 changes, so Sibelius must be interpreting my input in the background and outputting it to VSL in this odd way.

I can't work effectively with the current implementation of VSL for Sibelius.  I have tried:  a) turning off the expression bar and using only velocity bar but then the dynamic range is far too small, b)  going the other way around (turning off velocity) and using only the expression bar but this results in too artificial sounding playback (and ignores the whole point of owning VSL), c)  I am now experimenting with changing the way Sibelius interprets dynamic markings by altering the dictionary.  I plan to comendeer an unused controller such as controller 3, assign it to the expression bar, and thenhaving the expression text in Sibelius (e.g. ppp, pp , p , mp, mf, f, ff, fff) interpreted in the dictionary as controller 3 changes. 

I am left puzzled as to the current implementation of VSL in Sibelius and don't see how anyone could create professional sounding recordings in its current state.  So far, to ge the best out of VSL I must use Logic, and then it becomes quick and easy to blend sounds and make and edit controller changes.

I like the idea of Sibelius/VSL integration but so far I am quite disapointed and frustrated.

Plese lt me know if anyone come up with a solution to this problem with dynamics.  Michael

VSL Custom workstation with 8 core 'Nehalem', 3.3GHz processors and 48G RAM; Windows 7 Ultimate
MacPro 8 core Intel 2.8GHz with 32G RAM running Vista 64 Business
Macmini- 2xIntel- 2G RAM; Logic Studio (9);
Sibelius 6
Motu 8Pre; Altiverb;
Vienna MIR; VSL Super Package Extended and all download instruments; Vienna Suite; Ensemble PRO
Posted on Thu, Feb 05 2009 22:32
by andi
Joined on Wed, Feb 18 2004, Vienna, Posts 3523

Hello dmagiardi!

Vienna Ensemble is the host for Vienna Instruments. Maybe you have noticed, that the instruments you have inside Vienna Ensemble are exactly the same as the Vienna Instruments.
For a general introduction on working with Sibelius and Vienna Ensemble I recommend the Sibelius 5.2 and Vienna Ensemble Setup guide you find at the following location:
http://vsl.co.at/en/68/375/377/239.htm
Our tutorial video might also be of help. You can find it here:
http://vsl.co.at/en/211/1343/1348/243.vsl

When you assign a sound set, please don't forget to make channel and program settings on the Manual Sound Sets page afterwards. Maybe that was the problem.

Andi

Andreas Olszewski
Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Thu, Feb 05 2009 22:32
by andi
Joined on Wed, Feb 18 2004, Vienna, Posts 3523

For all who want a smaller dynamic range and get more realistic playback of hairpins, there is a different approach to using the dynamics Sibelius sends. Be aware that this will take more CPU power and more samples are streamed at the same time from your hard drive.

For dynamic changes Sibelius sends CC11 (MIDI Control Change 11) values. These values by default are triggering the Expression slider in the Vienna Instruments. In order to get more realistic crescendi and diminuendi you can do the following: Go to the Perform page in the Vienna Instruments. Activate Velocity X-Fade. Then Click on Map Control. Now as source for Expression set none. Then go to Velocity crossfader and as source select ControlChange/Controller 11. Repeat that for every instrument you want this to take effect. Don't forget to save your Playback Configuration in Sibelius after that.

Andi

Andreas Olszewski
Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Mon, Mar 02 2009 11:56
by npavkovic
Joined on Sat, Jan 08 2005, Los Angeles, Posts 19

Greetings Andi,

I've enabled the velocity crossfade and am using controller 11. However, I've noticed that Controller 7 is still used for the volume. Is that further magnifying the dynamic range, or does it not have any effect onces the velocity crossfade is enabled?

Thanks!

Nick

Posted on Mon, Mar 02 2009 13:01
by andi
Joined on Wed, Feb 18 2004, Vienna, Posts 3523

Hi Nick!

Controller 7 is by default not used by Sibelius, so it does not influence the dynamic range. I personally would leave it this way, but of course you can use it, if you want to...

Best,
Andi

Andreas Olszewski
Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Mon, Mar 02 2009 21:27
by npavkovic
Joined on Sat, Jan 08 2005, Los Angeles, Posts 19

Thank you, Andi -- good to know; I'm realizing now that I may have Controller 11 set for both Expression and Crossfade on some instruments, which may be exagerrating my dynamics.

One more dynamics question: I'm using the SE Timpani and would like to have crescendos and diminuendos within a roll. But if I set the Timpani to velocity crossfade, I seem to get all of the Timpani notes played at fff. Is there something I need to change in the soundset, or are Timpani/Mallets not meant to be played with velocity crossfade?

Sorry, I guess there's yet one more related question: Does it matter if I notate the roll with trill notation or as an unmeasured tremolo?

Thanks again,
N

Posted on Tue, Mar 03 2009 09:16
by andi
Joined on Wed, Feb 18 2004, Vienna, Posts 3523

Hi Nick!

If you also want to use timpani with velocity x-fade, please use the latest version of the Special Edition sound set from our website. This was not possible with earlier versions of the sound set.
The Timpani Rolls are triggered with the Sound ID +tremolo.unmeasured.

Best,
Andi

Andreas Olszewski
Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Thu, Mar 05 2009 15:10
by ChoPraTs
Joined on Tue, Dec 09 2008, Posts 22

I've problems with Sibelius and dynamics, too. I use Sibelius 5.2.5, Vienna Ensemble, Vienna Special Edition and the latest SoundSet for Vienna Special Edition.

As you've said, Sibelius dynamics are over exagerated, so I've tried to use Velocity X-Fade with Expression. And I've also tried to change on the dictionary the values of every dynamic, but is very difficult to find the perfect configuration, because some values are good for strings, but very bad for the piano, and not the best for winds, and other values can be very good for piano, but not correct to use with strings instruments.

I've also noticed that if I change the Volume on the Sibelius Mixer, it changes strangely the velocity sent to Vienna Ensemble, not just the volume. You can try it: write any music with a forte dynamic, and then playback changing the volume at the Sibelius Mixer. You'll can hear that not only the volume changes, also changes the type of sound, the attack of the note, the quality.

So, what volume we must assign to each instrument on Sibelius Mixer? 100 to all? Or better the maximum?

Posted on Thu, Mar 05 2009 16:30
by andi
Joined on Wed, Feb 18 2004, Vienna, Posts 3523

I wouldn't change the dictionary values for the dynamics. As you said, maybe you optimize one instrument with that, but you make it worse for other instruments.

Generally I would leave the volume levels in the Sibelius mixer as they are. As you said, this is not just for volume, but also changes the dynamics. On the other hand this is your chance to raise or lower the dynamic for individual instruments. So if carefully used, you can enhance the dynamic balance between instruments.
For just finding the right balance of volume I recommend using the mixer in Vienna Ensemble.

Best,
Andi
 

Andreas Olszewski
Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Fri, Apr 03 2009 13:00
by denis
Joined on Sun, Nov 16 2008, Posts 114
andi,
thanks for all these info. i couldn't hear anything while harping a note from ppp to fff. now with expression to maximum and cc11 assigned to velocity x-fade, it works much better!
can't wait to master the special edition and the way it interacts with sibelius.
best,

d.
Posted on Tue, Apr 07 2009 04:20
by stine1
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2005, Posts 10

I've found it impossible to use sibelius for playback with vsl for anything but the most simple dynamic markings.  I must export as midi and import into digital performer; then tweak the expression and velocity settings to create a recording.  One thing that really had me stumped was the fact that everytime a slur occurs the patch switches to a single pitch portamento.  Of course this makes string parts with double stops unusable; as well as conventional wind orchestral parts (where the convention is to use 2 parts to a staff).  I imagine that there might be someway to alter this behavior by directly editing the xml file that does the mapping, but that would probably take a while and I haven't had time.

Posted on Tue, Apr 07 2009 05:05
by aptmusic
Joined on Fri, Nov 14 2008, Portland, Posts 239
Under the playback menu U have to custom make a dictionary for vsl and save it as a house style. U can tell vsl what patch to switch to according to markings in score. So under "tie" and "slur" I use sound ID change +legato
Core i7 3930k - 64GB RAM - W7 Pro on 240GB Neutron SSD - RME HDSPe AIO - OCZ RevoDrive 120GB - Crucial RealSSD 256GB - 8 x HDD - Motif XS8 - Focal Solo 6 Be - Cubase 6 - Sibelius 6.2 - VE PRO - QL Spaces - Altiverb 6 - Hollywood Series - SC - SD2 - EWQL Pianos - MOR - Requiem Choir - VSL SE+ - Symphobia 1 and 2 - True Strike
Posted on Tue, Apr 07 2009 06:48
by andi
Joined on Wed, Feb 18 2004, Vienna, Posts 3523

Hello Robert!

Sorry, that you are facing problems.
It shouldn't be necessary to export a MIDI file for tweaking expression and velocity.
I've seen in your records, that you have registered our Special Edition standard and Special Edition PLUS standard libraries.
Which sound set do you use? In your case, it should be the Special Edition PLUS sound set, you find at the following location (login required):
http://vsl.co.at/en/68/375/460/295.htm
Also don't forget to make channel and program settings on the Playback Devices/Manual Sound Sets page for every instrument you have in your score.

Our Performance Interval (legato-, portamento-, performance-marcato-) patches  are monophonic due to interval recognition. So if you write a slur (which triggers the legato patch), you are limited to one voice. If you want to notate more voices in one staff with a slur, you can exclude the slur from playback and thus avoid switching to legato. To do so, select the slur and go to the Properties window/Playback. Uncheck the boxes for play on pass 1-8.

Best regards,
Andi Olszewski
Vienna Symphonic Library

Andreas Olszewski
Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Wed, Apr 08 2009 10:36
by stine1
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2005, Posts 10

Thanks Andi! I'll try excluding slurs from playback, that should work.  Although it's hard to do this for every slur in a long piece.  Is there a way to set this to occur globally so that slurs would never trigger the portamento?  Also, I think I'm using the correct sound set.  When I choose an instrument within vsl's interface I select one with the little '+' sign; ie. 'cello+'.  This selection then corresponds to the SE Plus sound set; correct?

Concerning dynamics, is there a way to globally compress the range of dynamics for playback?  ie. if the current range is from 2-127, could it be compressed somehow from 30-100?  This is very easy to do in digital performer when editing prior to recording.

Posted on Wed, Apr 08 2009 16:16
by andi
Joined on Wed, Feb 18 2004, Vienna, Posts 3523

I wouldn't turn off legato globally. Maybe I was not clear enough. The legato patches are monophonic, but of course instruments playing on different channels can all play legato at the same time. If you want to turn it off nevertheless, you can do so in the Sibelius dictionary under Staff Lines/Slur above and Slur below by removing the Sound ID change.

The matrices with the "+" attached are Special Edition PLUS matrices. To use these matrices in Sibelius you will need the SE PLUS sound set.

Concerning dynamics, I suggest doing as I have written earlier in this thread.
Alternatives would be avoiding extreme dynamics like ppp, pp, ff or fff and only using p,mp,mf,f. You could also change the dictionary values (dynamic and attack) for p,pp,ppp,f,ff,fff,mp and mf. (I personally wouldn't do that, but it might help for your particular score)

Best,
Andi

Andreas Olszewski
Vienna Symphonic Library
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