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Appassionata 1 question.
Last post Thu, May 28 2009 by Dietz, 25 replies.
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Posted on Tue, May 26 2009 17:18
by P_C
Joined on Mon, Sep 24 2007, Norway, Posts 154

 Im just wondering..what is the actual difference between the Standard lib Legato, and the extended lib 4 layer legato?

Is it only the initial sustains that are 4 layers (as opposed to the standard  2) or are the transition notes also in 4 different velocities?

In other words...is there really any point in using the 4layers intead of the 2 layer version?

Anyway, i love the sound of the lib, but i wish there was more content for the Basses tho....:D

Posted on Tue, May 26 2009 21:59
by svonkampen
Joined on Wed, Jan 05 2005, San Diego, California, Posts 828

Apass1.......It's the BEST sounding String LIBRARY EVER ;-)...........The EQing, the way they sit in the mix, just great.......HOWEVER, the chamber string library is the WORST sounding string library EVER!!...no amount of eqing can save it.............Vienna, if you still have the seating charts and recording notes from the "Apassionatta1" sessions, then pllleeeaaassee record another chamber (or call it Apass divisi) like that....SvK.....................call it Apass DIVISI.......i'll buy that!!

I once thought I was wrong, but I was mistaken.
MacPro 2x3Ghz Dual-Core Intel Xeon, 16 Gig RAM, 10.6.2, Metric Halo 2882, Logic 9
Posted on Tue, May 26 2009 22:44
by herb
Joined on Mon, Aug 05 2002, Posts 4622

It's always interesting to hear our users opinion.

Pros and cons for a certain sound is of course always a matter of taste,  

but the sales figures are simple facts: we've sold more a less the same units of Chamber and Appassionata strings...

best

Herb

Posted on Wed, May 27 2009 00:56
by svonkampen
Joined on Wed, Jan 05 2005, San Diego, California, Posts 828

herb,

love ya man....no offense...it isn't even a subjective thing...The recordings of the Chambers are just plain bad......there is a nastiness to them and a persistent very UNmusical buzzing that exists at so many points in the 3k to 6k area, it's just plain awful.......as to the sales figures..........I buy blind all the time.......BUT....how about a "divisi" appassionatta1 library?

I once thought I was wrong, but I was mistaken.
MacPro 2x3Ghz Dual-Core Intel Xeon, 16 Gig RAM, 10.6.2, Metric Halo 2882, Logic 9
Posted on Wed, May 27 2009 01:10
by herb
Joined on Mon, Aug 05 2002, Posts 4622

 We do have our recording schedules for the next three years, but  I can't share any details for understandable reasons.

best

Herd

Posted on Wed, May 27 2009 01:14
by Rob Elliott
Joined on Sun, Feb 02 2003, Salt Lake City, UT, Posts 1657

I probably have to agree with svk (and I have EVERY string library VSL has created).  AP 1 is just simply stunning - while CH1 has it's limits.  I must say the 3-6K 'buzz' is useful on gritty stacc/driving parts.

I like the 'divisi' AP 1 release.Wink  (sometimes that great AP1 'tone' - while great is just 'too big')

what would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail?
Posted on Wed, May 27 2009 06:28
by JWL
Joined on Sun, Jul 20 2003, Posts 1274

Herr Herbert:

The answer is always somewhere in the middle---  between the extremes.

Posted on Wed, May 27 2009 13:59
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7883

@ Svk: I'm happy to hear that you like the sound of our Appassionatas.

But to keep things in perspective, let me quote some random comments from both users and the press regarding our Chamber Strings:

**************

I just received the Chamber Strings VI and, after a couple of disappointments with other software maker's VI's that were no where near the sound quality the demos portrayed them to be, it was a delight to install the Vienna VI and get a huge smile on my face. It's one of the nicest pieces of software I've ever used.

**************

nothing but praise for Chamber Strings...

by far the absolute best string samples I have ever used....also, the performance tool intimidated me at first, but after a couple of days I found it to be really very expressive and intuitive....no real "learning curve" like I have found with other libraries.
Can't wait to buy more VSL!!!! [...]

***************

[Chamber Strings]

[...] I certainly haven't heard any other string patches that can compare with these, so thanks again, and I am looking forward to playing with them.

****************

I posted a sample of the Chamber Strings tripled up as per that thread. I was in the same boat, however I was doing Pop/R&B production, not classical. So, it's different. I can say, I was very happy I went with the Chamber Strings and the Solo Strings. I found it very versatile for my application. Also, layering the Solo Strings witht the Chmaber Strings was amazing.

Good luck. Whichever you get, you won't be sorry. It's the best software I've ever used.


******************

[…] As ever, the attention to musical detail is impressive […] I was pleased to see its excellent ‘Bollywood’ slide style replicated [Chamber Strings II] […] if you need the sound of a muted chamber string orchestra look no further. […] I can highly recommend both for their musicality and superb sound.

******************

*******************

;-)

Kind regards,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Wed, May 27 2009 15:01
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5701

I am not posting much anymore, and I am now to be considered a minimalist (which you can check in the Orchestration forum). I now believe that the less said, the better.    Period.

However I must add that svonkampen is not correct about the Chamber Strings.

It is because he is trying to use them in the same manner as Appassionata strings.  They are a totally different sound, very bright and upfront and clear, and should be for the kind of sound they represent: chamber instruments in a smaller space such as hearing a Baroque piece or Brandenburg concerto, etc.  Beat Kaufman for one did some great things with them that you simply could not do with Appassionata for example.  But they are also for a modern, more intimate sound.  And they are very good for divisi - I like the way the sound contrasts with the larger ensembles because it actually gives you what happens when you do divisi of a larger ensemble.  You hear individual colors more clearly on separate lines.  "La Mer d'amore"  of mine (I think it is somewhere here) does this along with layered solos.

Posted on Wed, May 27 2009 17:31
by svonkampen
Joined on Wed, Jan 05 2005, San Diego, California, Posts 828

You guys can post that stuff all you like.....I know my ears...I get a solid mock-up sound for the Orchestra...and I know what I'm hearing......Why do you think there is a "less direct" preset for the chambers from Dietz? It's more of a "corrective" eq. Those things sound unpleasant, they actually "hurt" the ear, I don't know what mic's you used, what mic-pre's, how the trees where placed, etc............I'm standing my ground on this......SvK

PS.....I realize that you are after the sound of 6 violins vs. 20....BUT the 6 violins should sound "pleasant", musical to the ear, not harsh and brutal...the Chambers do not sound pleasant , no matter how many reviews from customers I read...

I once thought I was wrong, but I was mistaken.
MacPro 2x3Ghz Dual-Core Intel Xeon, 16 Gig RAM, 10.6.2, Metric Halo 2882, Logic 9
Posted on Wed, May 27 2009 18:11
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7883
svonkampen wrote:
[...] Why do you think there is a "less direct" preset for the chambers from Dietz? [...]

Errrr ... I never thought that a poor little EQ-preset would give the reason for conspiration theories... :-D ... As you may have noticed, there are plenty of  "less direct", "more distant" etc. presets available for other instruments, too. The reason I created them is not to "correct" anything, but to show how versatile our samples are. "Yes, we can!", so to speak.

In Vienna there's a proverb saying "Geschmäcker und Ohrfeigen sind verschieden", which one could roughly translate as "Different people, different tastes". I would never dare to doubt your ears, SvK, but please accept that something that you don't like isn't necessarily bad for everybody else. "I know my ears", too. ;-)

... now back on topic!

Kind regards,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Wed, May 27 2009 19:50
by stu goldberg
Joined on Sun, Apr 29 2007, Penticton, BC, Posts 50

I have to agree with Dietz - different strokes... Personally I love the chamber strings. I often use the chamber violins at low velocity to play passages I would normally write for non vibrato violin harmonics - example:

http://www.stugoldberg.com/mp3htmlpages/AB-M12-WhatISaid.html

(vsl concert guitar & chamber violins)

Used in this fashion they don't sound harsh/unpleasant at all to my ears.

Best,

--Stu

Posted on Wed, May 27 2009 22:14
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5701

You are not going to get a huge dark filmscore string section - which is obviously what you want  - out of six violins. That is not the purpose of them.  It is the purpose of the other string ensembles.   

Posted on Thu, May 28 2009 00:17
by svonkampen
Joined on Wed, Jan 05 2005, San Diego, California, Posts 828

no, William, that is not what I'm after....I'm going for a small, intimate DARK chamber moment, within my HUGE dark film score ;-)..but I DO expect the chambers to sound warm, pleasant. Eq'ing them does not help much.....SvK.....PS: It is not nearly as apparent when playing short articulations (beat kaufmann demos....very nice by the way)....It IS really apparent when tring to do slow moving stuff, with the sustains.....SvK

I once thought I was wrong, but I was mistaken.
MacPro 2x3Ghz Dual-Core Intel Xeon, 16 Gig RAM, 10.6.2, Metric Halo 2882, Logic 9
Posted on Thu, May 28 2009 00:19
by svonkampen
Joined on Wed, Jan 05 2005, San Diego, California, Posts 828

That being said though William.........it would be nice to be able to write Appasionata / Divisi.......thought I could get the chambers there.......but nooooooo way.......Vienna needs to learn to to think "modular" , instead of seperate...All of the String Libraries should work together as well as on there own.....

SvK

I once thought I was wrong, but I was mistaken.
MacPro 2x3Ghz Dual-Core Intel Xeon, 16 Gig RAM, 10.6.2, Metric Halo 2882, Logic 9
Posted on Thu, May 28 2009 01:35
by dpcon
Joined on Sat, Oct 12 2002, Los Angeles, Posts 1646

I would love Appassionata Divisi! Also would love Appassionata I Complete (more articulations, dynamic patches, repetitions etc.)

I do not own Chamber Strings so cannot say but love the way Appassionata were recorded!

Dave Connor
Posted on Thu, May 28 2009 03:29
by MaD
Joined on Thu, Sep 20 2007, Posts 36

I'm all for Appassionata Divisi and yes, please, more articulations fo the original. :)

Posted on Thu, May 28 2009 07:00
by RainerL
Joined on Wed, Jul 13 2005, Germany, Posts 79

The number of e.g. violins which are  included in the voices of AS is 20. Of course this causes a very full, warm sound.

The number of violins in the Chamber Strings (nomen est omen!) is 6. Of course this causes a direct sound with a different character.

If the Chamber Strings would sound like the Appassionatas, I would be very disappointed!

So I think one should avoid to compare apples with oranges. Maybe one can get better results by using the orchestral strings for divisi. And indeed, it would be usefull to get the luxury of Appassionata divisi with 10 violins...

Best Rainer

Posted on Thu, May 28 2009 15:01
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5701

That is exactly right, and what I was talking about with not getting the sound of 20 violins from 6.  They CANNOT sound like Appassionata because of the natural effect of the ensemble size.  For someone to COMPLAIN about that is very inappropriate. 

By the way the chamber strings ARE divisi for both the Orchestral and Appassionata.  That is exactly what i was just saying.   They work perfectly for that if they are handled correctly.  The entire philosophy of sampling these string sections has been to start with the generally useful Orchestral strings, create more detail in the Chamber and Solo, and then expand into the Appassionata.  Anyone who says that they don't mix is wrong.

If you want a demo of that just listen to Jay Bacal's performance of Fantasia on a Theme of Thomas Tallis which mixes all the strings, right?  Solo, Chamber, Orchestral, Appassionata if I am remembering right.    That did not sound too "nasty"  to me! 

Posted on Thu, May 28 2009 16:55
by svonkampen
Joined on Wed, Jan 05 2005, San Diego, California, Posts 828

William....the chambers and Orchestral 1 strings, were created long before the Appasionata Strings.....Obviously, one gets better at what one does, and the recording techniques utilized in Appass 1 are a testament to this.....They are well "rounded", and the chambers could use some of that  magic.....I don't want them to sound like 20, I want them to sound like pleasant chambers...........Also this forum should not serve as a "love fest".....After spending the equivalent of a down-payment on a home on Vienna (I'd do it again, as there are no other options), I should be able to critique where I believe it's justified.......SvK

I once thought I was wrong, but I was mistaken.
MacPro 2x3Ghz Dual-Core Intel Xeon, 16 Gig RAM, 10.6.2, Metric Halo 2882, Logic 9
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