VSL solo strings quartet + Borsendorfer for Tool cover - need help

[Leah Kardos]

Hello people, this is my first post here. I've just created a string arrangement of a Tool song/cover I'd like to do and for the first time I'm using entirely VSL instruments (no real ones to layer on top). I'm feeling very vulnerable - and paranoid. They sound fakeish, too perfect and I know it.

I have gone through and pulled the velocities of individual notes into the samples that I think sound best, I've offset start and end points to make them sloppier, I've automated pitch shift to slightly detune everything + or - 10 cents around the hand position changes... I haven't yet gone through with the expression fader... and I honestly don't know how to use the filter, vel xf and anything else in order to get a realistic performance. I'm still a bit of a newb with this stuff.

This is only a demo that still needs some serious mixing... but before I bounced it I put the quartet on a stem and applied a multipressor to it, and an aux send reverb (i'm using space designer in Logic).

I'd love to know what I'm doing wrong, or if I'm just aiming a bit too high with the realism. I find the solo string samples a bit intense at high velocity - and oh how I wish there was variable vibrato on these things!

here's the link to the first demo of this arrangement (forgive my singing):

http://demo.leahkardos.info/files/page5_blog_entry37_summary_1.mp3


PS - anyone else finding the borzy piano a bit "pingy" at mid velocities? Maybe it's just the way I play it?

Ok - thanks for your help!! - Leah

[mplaster]

honestly it doesnt sound as bad as you think. We are our own worst critic, right?

Some problems may be the reverb on the strings with respect to how it fits in the mix. Space Designer drove me nuts, so i got altiverb & honestly that seemed to fix a lot of my own "Realism" issues.

Personally, i would try EQing the strings rather than multipressoring them. Find the frequencies you are boosting in the multipressor and use those in an eq instead of multiband compression. Sometimes that can bring things "too perfect" sounding. Also, if youve got the processor power, try putting the reverb on each individual instrument, and maybe edit each verb for depth (although this is much more easily done in Altiverb than in  Sp. Designer) 

In my opinion it does sound like you are being a bit too prefectionistic, cause i thought it sounded pretty good. For a Tool song, that is :P

The Bosen is a bit too pingy, but i am biased cause ive never liked the sound of Bosendorfers.

And your voice sounds great, btw. Im sure you get Tori Amos comparisons... but thats a good thing :)

Keep up the good work.

-michael

[Leah Kardos]

Hi Michael, thanks so much for listening and taking the time to reply. :)

I'm going to try the EQ tips you suggest, and will also plug in a reverb insert on each part, from what you say I'm sure it will help. Thanks for the tips! After listening again I'm convinced that the multipressor is to blame for a lot of the 'fakiness' when the whole ensemble are playing together. I was too busy trying to get them in the same room I didn't think that separation would be the key.

Do you know if there's a good general EQ setting for the solo strings (is that like common knowledge round these parts?) or would I be better off doing a 'Match EQ' against some of my fave soloists...? Probably the latter I suspect. I'm just wary of soon descending into 'tweak-hell', spending days trying to get the sound right until I reach the point of insanity.

Out of curiosity, is there a piano sample that you would endorse? I've been struggling with this problem for years, not having my own acoustic piano to record has felt like such a compromise and no sample has ever really satisfied...

[mplaster]

well, from a technical standpoint, the new Vienna Imperial is, hands down, the most amazing sampled piano ever. Although it technically IS a Bosen, i was relieved upon hearing Guy Bacos demos; they really have captured that low-velocity, mellow, round, warm, smooth character very well. The usual concerty-soundin, bright, honky bosen sound is what i have not found to my liking.

But anyhow, as far as other sampled pianos, my go-to piano is PMI's "Old Lady," It's warm, smooth, well sampled. And for a slightly brighter sound they also offer one called "The Emperor"  which is a bit richer and thicker sounding... I think they are both available at sampletekk.com. Also, mod-artt's Pianoteq, although it is a physically modelled aproach to pianos, i have found to be rather convincing in certain situations, as it offers  sympathetic resonance, hammer sound, pedal noise, etc options that you cant find on a strictly sampled piano.

I rarely use Match EQ so i cant attest to how well that would work. The Vienna Suite plugins have an amazing wealth of EQ settings for nearly every instrument in the VSL library... theyve come in very handy for me!

- michael

[Leah Kardos]

The new Imperial is so expensive though... but you're so right, the regular Bosendorfer they included with the special edition is pingy like a mofo, and makes even the most velocity sensitive performance sound clumsy. Maybe I'll just keep saving my pennies and go for the V-piano. Vienna suit plugins? God I'm a newb. I had no idea VSL had it's own EQ...

[heartandsoul]

Hi Leah.  I just listened to the whole track and I thought it was outstanding.  I do have several ideas for you to try.  I've  been a producer for a much longer time than I've been a composer, so my experience is much more oriented toward making things sound like the artist wanted them to sound.  I thought the arrangement was really good, by the way, both piano and strings.  The harshness in the Bösendorfer is exactly at 1kHz and 2kHz (I just checked it in a project), so if you put any eq on it, set the frequency to 1kHz (which is the same as 1000) and dip something narrow, like a Q of 4 or 5 (if you see Q on the eq controls, if not, don't worry) by 3dB, that will help.  More importantly, I would stay away from all of the louder velocities in the strings and the piano.  Use a lower velocity, and then mix the track louder (either with automation on the Logic Track, or with the expression, they're exactly the same audio result).  The louder volume will still be perceived as intensity, but without some of the sample weirdness, which is just unavoidable, even in great collections like these.  (By the way, excuse the long paragraph, I don't know how to format these yet.)

On the strings, I've been amazed at how much brightness I need to pull out of these strings.  If you think about it, nobody ever hears strings like a microphone does, we hear them bouncing off of walls at a distance, and that removes a tremendous amount of the treble.  I would use any EQ in Logic and take everything over 4K or 5K down a lot, maybe 3 or more dB.  I've also been using the built-in filter in the Performance part of the VI interface, and at a setting of 90 or so (out of 100) it works pretty well, but the EQ is much easier.

Finally, beware of that ruthless meatcleaver, the Logic multiprocessor.  It always sounds good as your tired ears finish the session, and only later can you hear the way it's massacring your hard work.  Having said that, the track I listened to didn't sound that way at all, so you must have kept pretty good control over it.  Great work --  good luck with it.  Finally, I just reread the end of your post, the Bösendorfer on your track is not pingy except where you hit the louder velocities, I think it's a great sound for most of that track.

 By the way, you can check out a much different vibe, but also Piano and Strings (VI strings, but before I had the Bösendorfer) at aotpr.com/ohana -- page way down to the track "Let It All Down".  For VI solo viola and cello sounds, check out the track "Hidden".

[jasensmith]

I don't think you're doing anything wrong with this piece.  Mind you, I'm not the VSL expert God (far from it to be honest) but I think it sounds fine.  If it's any consolation to you, I like your version better than Tool's but I never really cared for Tool anyway.

 

The Expression and Vel Xfade faders can really work wonders in a piece but I can't really hear any unnatural anomalies because your voice captures the attention.  If you have not used them before I probably wouldn't at this point because they do take some skill to master.  You can play with those faders in the future. 

 

Do you feel that the piano is upstaging your voice when you say "pingy?".  The piano should compliment your voice instead of competing with it and I think it compliments your voice just fine.  You have a strong enough voice.  However, I don't think it would hurt to tone the keys down a bit if it bothers you that much.  They don't bother me though.

[Leah Kardos]

this post was SO helpful, thank you very much!!! I love production, but when I'm working on an arrangement or composition of my own, I sometimes find it hard to listen past the notes... if that makes sense... Those examples sound great! something for me to aspire to, definitely :) Thanks again, I printed out your reply and have it posted to my notice board! regards, leah

[Leah Kardos]

Cheers for giving it a listen. The pingy thing annoys me, not because it upstages my voice, it's just not how a real grand piano would sound if I were to play it in the same way. There's a point where the velocity changes the sample (don't know exactly where, but it's where the colour turns from green to yellow in Logic!) that just sounds like the pianist is clunky, tripping over themselves banging out random loud notes.

Mind you, I'm using a sh*tty old Korg Sp200 to perform on, so maybe part of the problem lies there... I have gotten a lot of great advice from some people here regarding the vel XF function, which I previously had NO idea about. Definitely keen to test it out, I've been trying to manage expression by endlessly tinkering with the velocities, articulations and automation in the hyperedit windows. I had a feeling I was doing it the long way.

I didn't think I'd find many Tool fans in a place like this, so I'm really happy folks are finding it listenable.

Leah

[heartandsoul]

Definitely don't try the velocity cross fader on the Bösendorfer, it's not supposed to work. The download manual says "No velocity crossfades were mapped for this instrument since this wouldn't make much sense. Please make sure that the velocity crossfading option is set to "off" when you play - otherwise there will be no sound at all." (It makes no sense because once you play a key on a piano, that's the sound it makes, whereas on a violin you can continuously change the sound of a note as you play.) The manual is at USER AREA / DVD INSTRUMENTS / Library Manuals. And jasensmith is definitely right, the velocity cross fader is difficult. I also agree with him about your vocal (which was plenty cool), that with the vocal you really don't have to worry nearly as much about fine sonic details in the instrumentation, because people are listening to the vocal so much. As for velocities, the Logic velocities are only an indication of the note value in Logic, the actual velocities of the samples change only at specific values. Check out the values in the manual, but for example, from velocity 2 to 29 is one sample (very soft) then there's another from 30 to 49, and so on. The changes you hear within these ranges are just internal level adjustments in the Logic software. Also, be aware that the two quietest velocities, 0 and 1, don't make a sound in the Bosendorfer, they play the sound of key noise (for added realism in a really classical performance, that would never be heard in a track like yours). I don't think that your keyboard is a problem; it's just hard to get these things right. I'm always in the matrix window in Logic, adjusting the velocities of any note that sounds weird in any way, musically or sonically. Thanks for the kind words, I'm working on a track with the Bösendorfer in it now.

[Raymonde]

L. K. said: They sound fakeish, too perfect and I know it.

I thought the demo was fantatastic and truely an inspiration to another who yearns to add his voice to the cosmic stream.

Some thoughts on how to handle the VSL solo strings- I've had them for over six months and they are really fantastically realistc, when they are listened to dry-no reverb, no added velocities. It is at this point that all of the sonic features are heard best. There is, however,  too much vibrato and I think that adds to the articficial sound. Very seldom do even the greatest violinists achieve such steady, and really to my tastes, overly noticable  vibrato. But that's an aside to the overall greatness of the sonic acheivement that VSL has accomplished.

Paul Steinbauer of VSL has some great training videos- they show how to use the performance controller in the Vienna Instrument player. However, he never fully explains the other controlelrs to  any extent. Someone at VSL needs to address what velocity crossfades really are, what the master release controller does and what the master filter controller would do and what  mapping those to a controller will  achieve. Also, VSL instruments in general do not really resopond to adjustments of the midi velocity feature commonly available (Midi Contoller keyboard velocities, adjustments in the sequencer via midi editors, etc)  unless the performance controls are switched on . When the performance contrllers are switched on, the keboard controller will too easily cause surges in the velocity.

Anyway, to get to the point: the secret to VSL  sound is the close miking; however this means that the volume of the instrument needs to be lowered by other means so it's not so 'in your face'. I attack that problem by sending the solo insturments to another channel ( in Cubase that may be done by setting up a group channel ) and loading some reverb on that group channel. The send in the solo insturment track can be taken up from an infinite distance away back to the close miking by adjusting the amount of the send . But, now some reverb enters the picture adding more control which makes the sound pretty sweet; the mixture is more easily controlled too and the solo instrument takes a back seat ( or a soft pedal stance) when that is needed. 

Your mix sounded really awesome though. and I look forward to hearing more!

So long

Southfield, Michigan, USA