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Eight VE Pro Instance Limit
Last post Thu, Oct 15 2009 by Karel, 65 replies.
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Posted on Sat, Sep 26 2009 02:06
by plowman
Joined on Sat, Dec 13 2003, Posts 1122

Sorry if i missed something in the manual. By a long trial and error process, I've come to realize that I can only connect 8 VE Pro instances in Logic 9.0.1. This is with a local host only. I can create more instances in the Server window, but I can only connect 8 at a time. 

If I try to connect a ninth, I see the available slave and select it, but immediately the window reverts to "Not Connected." If I disconnect one VE PRO, then I can connect the previous one, but never more than 8. 

Is this normal? I'm on 64-bit, Logic 9.0.1, OS 10.6.1, and the latest Syncrosoft driver. Memory should not be an issue as I'm under 2 GB all around. 

Posted on Sat, Sep 26 2009 06:31
by quartz3d
Joined on Tue, Feb 26 2008, Posts 22

Why do you need 8 instances of VE? That seems like a lot....

Posted on Sat, Sep 26 2009 06:47
by timkiel
Joined on Fri, Jun 06 2003, Posts 627

It's only 128 VIs! which if you're running under 2GB seems to me you'd never reach anyway.  You do realize each VE can have 16 VIs in Logic don't you

Intel Mac Pro (2 x 2.66 Xeon Dual Core, 8GB RAM, Nvidia 7300GT), RME Fireface 800, OS 10.6.4, Logic 9.1.1 (64-bit mode)
Posted on Sat, Sep 26 2009 08:12
by Wolf Wein
Joined on Sun, Jan 11 2004, Vallejo, CA, Posts 123

I have not verified the 8 instances limit, but I just connected 12 VE Pros, 10 locally + 2 on a slave. The local ones are divided between the 64 and 32 bit server. I'm running 10.5.7, so I'm not sure if you can use this workaround on 10.6 (I don't know if the 32 server runs on 10.6).

2013 MacPro 2018 MacBookPro; MacOS 10.13.6, ; Logic 10.4.4; VSL cube a.o., VEPro, VIPRo, MIRPro,VSPro
wolftrackaudio.com
Posted on Sat, Sep 26 2009 12:23
by plowman
Joined on Sat, Dec 13 2003, Posts 1122

Thanks nelp. I can verify that the 32-bit runs on 10.6. 

One VE PRO for each major instrument (with percussion as one instrument) in the orchestra equals at least fourteen VE instances. Why would I pile different instruments into the same VE? Technically easy, organizationally tedious. 

In any case, it's a simple question. VSL, is this a built-in limit, user error, or a function of the demo?

By the way, troubles with the website posting. A lot of Oops errors. This thread should have been in the Vienna Instruments category. 

Thanks all. 

Posted on Sat, Sep 26 2009 20:02
by petera
Joined on Wed, Apr 08 2009, Munich, Germany, Posts 76

Same problems here. I can create many instances, but only connect 8 of them.

Dear Vienna-Team, please tell us that this is only an user error or a bug. Because 8 instances is definitely to little. For big projects I need more than 60! Yes, that sounds much, but I know exactly what I'm doing ;-)

By the way: I'm working on a single PC only and I use VE Pro because of the "Preserve"-function.

Best regards,

Peter

Posted on Sat, Sep 26 2009 20:19
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
petera wrote:

Dear Vienna-Team, please tell us that this is only an user error or a bug. Because 8 instances is definitely to little. For big projects I need more than 60! Yes, that sounds much, but I know exactly what I'm doing ;-)

Best regards,

Peter

 

Is there no way that you can use more than one MIDI track per instance? Every VE Pro that you load uses more memory, more CPU and more ASIO performance. I'm not sure that you could actually load 60, even if you could load 60, if you see what I mean. Wink

Let me switch the studio back on anyway and see how many I get.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Sat, Sep 26 2009 21:33
by petera
Joined on Wed, Apr 08 2009, Munich, Germany, Posts 76

OK, today I learned something very important. Maybe that's interesting for other people, too.

In the past I used VST2 Plugins only. When you insert a VST2 in Cubase in the VST-Rack, you have a maximum number of 16 stereo outputs and 16 midi channels. So my first thoughts were I should only use 16 instruments per VE Pro instance.

But you also have the possibility to insert VE Pro as a VST3 Plugin. Its name is " | | | Vienna Ensemble Pro" (the three lines left of the name are the symbol for a VST3-Plugin). With VST3 you now have a maximum of 64 stereo outputs and 512 midi chanels. So you can use much more instruments per instance and however control all this instruments with one VST-Plugin in the VSt-Rack. (don't forget to press the "Preferences" button in the VE Pro Server window to define the number of audio and midi channels per instance).

Best regards,

Peter

Posted on Sat, Sep 26 2009 23:20
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

 Hmm. I typed a detailed post about this issue, but it seems to have disappeared.

Anyway, I agree that there is an 8 VE instance limit per server. Which limits you to 4096 MIDI tracks and 512 VSTi Outputs per server.

However, this is not the case for anyone using AU, because due to the cr*p spec that Apple has kindly provided, you can only get 128 MIDI tracks and 128 Outputs (AFAIK), so for Logic customers i can see this possibly being an issue, particularly as not all users are using up to date sample players like Vienna instruments, and are still using the old fashioned ones that require a separate track for each articulation. Boy, i certainly don't miss those days. Devil

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Sun, Sep 27 2009 02:28
by plowman
Joined on Sat, Dec 13 2003, Posts 1122

"I typed a detailed post about this issue...." I wish I could have read it. Is it possible it loaded into another thread? I still don't remember if, by accident, I put this thread in the MIR forum, but I never go to MIR, so I cant imagine I did. The forum behavior has been a little flaky lately. I have learned the hard way to copy my posts before they're sent. 

Please understand that I know I can get an obscene amount of tracks from and memory within one VE instance. The line I am trying to draw is to keep Flute Matrices in a Flute VE, Oboe matrices in an Oboe VE, et cetera, allowing for the principal instruments in a standard orchestra.

I am hoping I don't need to go the Winds / Brass / Percussion / Strings grouping by virtue of a limit to eight instances (or any mixture thereof for individual and grouped VE's, topping at eight). And I note with concern that the manual's examples are grouped this way. 

Thanks for your confirmations. My next step tomorrow will be to see if, when I double click the VE Ensemble in the channel strip and do the "Show Window" dance, I will see the display by MIDI port, or if I'll need to scroll down sixteen instruments or manually select the MIDI port to find what patch I'm triggering. 

If I immediately see what I'm playing, then 8 instances is tolerable. I don't care what instance it is, if I can see what I'm playing when the VE edit screens open directly. If I have to play with MIDI ports to obviate the eight instance limit, so be it.  

But if I have to hunt down whichever of, say, 128 instruments I might be playing in that one compendium of a Winds VE Pro instance, sorting through flutes, then oboes to clarinets, finally discovering the Bassoon DYN 2s that the channel stip is actually playing.... then the template I had imagined will simply not be tenable. That is not a real-world layout. 

I will trust for better from VSL. I just can't explain why VSL didn't just tell us about the limit. 

Posted on Sun, Sep 27 2009 05:36
by skatz
Joined on Thu, Mar 20 2008, Posts 22
This definitely seems like an unfortunate limitation for myself and MANY of the DP and Logic composers I know here in LA. One workaround would be to use instrument banks (for Kontakt) at least, and then send patch changes from the sequencer.

That said, I wonder about the possibility of having VE instances create virtual MIDI ports, like Plogue Bidule does (and several other pieces of software for that matter). It wouldn't solve the issue of audio limitations, but it would allow you to access more instruments. Just a thought.
Mac Pro Late 2013 12x2.7
64GB RAM
MacOS 10.14.3
Logic 10.4.4
RME Multiface
Posted on Sun, Sep 27 2009 09:23
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7727
Re "I put this thread in the MIR forum, but I never go to MIR, so I cant imagine I did."


We try to keep things organized - it may very well be that you replied to a VE-thread in the VI-forum, which got moved to the MIR- & Mixing -(and thus: VE)-Forum consequently.
/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Sun, Sep 27 2009 10:36
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
plowman wrote:

But if I have to hunt down whichever of, say, 128 instruments I might be playing in that one compendium of a Winds VE Pro instance, sorting through flutes, then oboes to clarinets, finally discovering the Bassoon DYN 2s that the channel stip is actually playing.... then the template I had imagined will simply not be tenable. That is not a real-world layout. 

 

I don't know why you would say that it is not a real world limit. In the real world you never have 128 Woodwind instruments. Wink

I have no problem putting all my Woods in One instance with VE2 though, although it would get a bit tight should I want to add many other things like Alto Flute.

However, even with every possible instrument in the Woods playing I can't use More than about 20 MIDI channels. How on earth are you getting to 128 Instruments? That's the size of my complete VSL template, and I often have 2 Vienna Instruments for each orchestral instrument. Maybe there is a better way of working that you haven't tried yet?

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Sun, Sep 27 2009 10:37
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

skatz wrote:
This definitely seems like an unfortunate limitation for myself and MANY of the DP and Logic composers I know here in LA. One workaround would be to use instrument banks (for Kontakt) at least, and then send patch changes from the sequencer. That said, I wonder about the possibility of having VE instances create virtual MIDI ports, like Plogue Bidule does (and several other pieces of software for that matter). It wouldn't solve the issue of audio limitations, but it would allow you to access more instruments. Just a thought.
 

The real limitation is the AU spec, so you'll have to hassle Apple about that.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Sun, Sep 27 2009 16:13
by plowman
Joined on Sat, Dec 13 2003, Posts 1122

I am talking about a MIDI orchestrator's real world. In the REAL real world, we would give it to a human being and say, "Play this." That world does not apply in this thread. 

The "Why would you want so many...." notes keep coming. For the love of all things Vienna, I can load fifteen and three-quarters BILLION instruments into this interface. I got it. I so freaking got it. I can load more instruments in VE PRO that there are hungry mouths to feed on this fallen planet. When Carl Sagan was asked how many galaxies are in this universe, he said, "About as many as Plowman can load instruments on his VE PRO." And I've still got 12 GB left over. 

I'm going to start another thread. I think I'm beginning to see that the issue is local hosting without access to Virtual MIDI ports, as suggested by Skatz.  I welcome all feedback. Thanks DG and others for hanging in there.  

Thanks Dietz. I get it now. VE PRO is considered more of a mixing venue. You might consider adding VE PRO to the topic title "MIR, Vienna Suite." I know you're trying to keep it simple, which is hard because VSL programs overlap each other. 

Posted on Sun, Sep 27 2009 16:48
by dbudde
Joined on Sun, Mar 02 2003, Seattle,WA USA, Posts 450
DG wrote:
However, this is not the case for anyone using AU, because due to the cr*p spec that Apple has kindly provided, you can only get 128 MIDI tracks and 128 Outputs

Where are you seeing this limitation?  I am not aware of any such limit.  Logic Express does have track limitations (255) but Logic Pro does not.

Posted on Sun, Sep 27 2009 17:03
by timkiel
Joined on Fri, Jun 06 2003, Posts 627

It's the actual limit of MIDI channels and VE Pro instances.  You can have 8 VE Pro instances per machine and each can have 16 MIDI channels, therefore 8*16=128.

Intel Mac Pro (2 x 2.66 Xeon Dual Core, 8GB RAM, Nvidia 7300GT), RME Fireface 800, OS 10.6.4, Logic 9.1.1 (64-bit mode)
Posted on Sun, Sep 27 2009 17:11
by plowman
Joined on Sat, Dec 13 2003, Posts 1122

Okay, I'm realizing that what I'm realizing is real. Thanks timkiel. I just started another thread, if anyone wants to discuss this limit within Logic vis-a-vis VE PRO local hosting. 

All VSL had to do was put a simple sentence in the manual or on their website: Up to 128 channels for local hosting. And if it was anywhere, my apologies for missing it. 

Posted on Sun, Sep 27 2009 17:48
by dbudde
Joined on Sun, Mar 02 2003, Seattle,WA USA, Posts 450

OK, what am I doing wrong?  I just created 22 instances of VE Pro (11 in a 32-bit server and 11 in a 64- bit server). I stopped adding instances out of boredom, not because I ran into some limitation. All on a single machine.

http://homepage.mac.com/dbudde/.Music/instances.png

Posted on Sun, Sep 27 2009 17:52
by dlpmusic
Joined on Sun, Jan 19 2003, Posts 283

Are all those instances connected?  I can create more than 8 on the 32 bit server, but I as others can actually only connect to 8 of them inside Logic.

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