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  • Speed versus sonics

    Hey all

    I've been away from composing for quite a while... 

    I just recently completed two pieces. One was a string quartet using only sounds from the Special Edition, the other used a mish mash of romplers (JV1080, Proteus 2) , some VSL, Modartt, and some of Logics built in sounds. My experience was that composing exclusively with VSL seems to make the process more diffuse, drawing me more into the detail of keyswitches, velocities and achieving realism, and perhaps away from the music.... In contrast the immediacy and relative lack of subtlety of the romplers, seemed to make the process quicker and more progressive... and for me a bit more musically satisfying - less time to get sick of the piece :-)

    Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the sounds and detail of VSL, so I'm just wondering if others have experienced this, and how they get the best out of themselves when working exclusively ITB. 

    Thanks in advance

    Chris


  • i perfectly understand what you mean. composing orchestral music directly on the computer seems very unorganic to me. when i compose for orchestra, i usually write the music on paper first (or at least a reduction) and then program it. when i see the music on the paper i can relate to what i write more and my writing is also faster... the programming afterwards is also faster, because i already know what i want the music to sound like.


  • :-)

    Intriguing ... we are probably coming at this from opposite perspectives, yet experiencing a similar phenomenon. For me, I rely completely on the computer to compose ... in fact I can barely even play the keyboard, so quite often work in step time entering notes directly to score or piano roll. The odd thing I am finding is that the degree of detail and realism available from VSL tends to immerse me in processes which aren't so much composition, as production. Working with the relative crudity of 80's/90's romplers like Proteus and the JV seems to have the opposite effect: there's so little to be done with the sounds that you need to focus on the music, which in turn often translates to creative momentum.  I guess this is also partly setup: I have a 1st gen Mac Pro with a paltry 2gb ram so avoid situations where I might end up freezing/bouncing etc - the essence of creativity killers. 

    I'd love to have the time to really get on top of keyboard and start writing direct to paper, but lack of time, and age (44) probably mean thats not going to happen.  

    Cheers

    Chris


  • for me it differs, depending on the genre of music i write. sometimes i merely use the computer and sometimes the computer is only the final step in the compositional process, or not even involved in composition at all, just in the realization of music.

    the great thing about writing on paper first and then programming it, is the fact that this procedure implies great ear training. if you program the piece, you immediately find out if the music sounds the way you imagine it in your head. if not, try to find out why and fix it... not that long ago, you needed a real orchestra at your disposal to go through that learning process. i admit: a real orchestra is still something different from a virtual one and in the long run, you can´t really do without that process, but still: you really learn a lot about instrumentation, composition, etc...


  • I'd love to be able to do that ... perhaps someday if I can find the time to seriously dedicate myself to the process, who knows? :-)

    In the meantime, its going to be about finding the most direct non paper/pen path from imagination to realisation. Part of me thinks that getting back to basics, collecting a few more nice romplers (there must be some improvement on JV1080 and Proteus 2 surely), and running a small set of premium samples / modeled instruments from the mac is the way to go. On the other hand, I could always shove in a load more ram, and perhaps upgrade to the SE plus ... The key really is transparency, and not having the creative processed diluted or distorted by tinkering with technology. 

    Cheers

    Chris


  • For me, composing exclusively on paper has always been the only way worth doing. Prokofiev was once asked -- by an equally famous writer -- "do you use the piano to check the effect of your pieces?" "Why", answered Prokofiev, "Do *you* read your stories aloud to check what their effect is?"

  • You know, to VSL's credit, I think they've bent over backwards to make their products the most intuitive and composer friendly products on the market.  They've almost taken the MIDI out of MIDIstration.  I remember five years ago when you had to have seperate tracks for seperate articulations.  I was still using ROMplers at that time myself but I can only imagine what a bore it must have been setting up individual tracks for individual articulations.  If I had to do that now... I probably would still be using those nasty ROMplers.  I think a lot of people who use VSL products praise VSL for the stellar sound quality of their samples but forget about the enormous acomplishments they've achieved on the software side of the house. 

    Take the speed function for example, the software knows what sample to play based on how fast or slow you play.  There is no keyswitching involved.  If it's off a bit, then simply adjust the parameters of the speed matrix.  Or, better yet, create your own speed matrix.  Create multiple speed matrices and key switch back and forth between them.  

    Also, there is the velocity crossfade to switch back and forth between samples.  Not to mention the ability to adjust the attack and release of samples in real time which is essential for realistic performances.  Running out of RAM?  Don't freeze, optomize.

    The Vienna Ensemble software allows you to create your own presets which remain constant until you change them.  If you keep all of your keyswitches the same for all of your projects then programming is just a formality and really not that time consuming.  Granted there is a bit of a learning curve to some of this, which I am still learning myself, but it isn't nearly as steep the learning curve is for mastering the violin, trumpet, English horn etc.  I can't speak for VEPRO or MIR since I don't own them but it doesn't take an astronaut to figure out the basic functionality of the VE/VI software.  In fact, a monkey astronaut could pick this up pretty quickly.

    Chris, my suggestion would be to start with a speed matrix (watch the video for speed controlled matrices).  The SE doesn't come with pre-made speed matrices so you would have to create your own.  Basically, a sustain patch would be on the low speed followed by a legato (mid to medium fast speed) and maybe a staccato for fast playing (depends on your taste).  If it's a string instrument, create a vertical cell for portamentos that you crossfade with the legato patch.  adjust the parameters to your liking; if the sustain patch plays when you want legato then move the slider to the left a bit.  You may have to make some minor adjustments here and there to get the artics you want to play when you want.

    I hope this helps Chris.  I'll never go back to ROMplers again!


  • lol :-) Alas, I am no Prokofiev!  Realistically, aged 44 with no musical training, no instrumental ability, and probably little/no time for either, my efforts in either direction will be limited.

    But I do have a musical imagination (IMVHO) to at least some extent, for example http://www.soundseed.com/napier/Quartet5.mp3 ... And that for me is the burning question, how to ensure with the faculties at hand, that the path from imagination to realisation is as streamlined as possible.

    Cheers

    Chris


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    last edited

    @jasensmith said:

    You know, to VSL's credit... <snip> ...

    Chris, my suggestion would be to start with a speed matrix (watch the video for speed controlled matrices).  The SE doesn't come with pre-made speed matrices so you would have to create your own.  Basically, a sustain patch would be on the low speed followed by a legato (mid to medium fast speed) and maybe a staccato for fast playing (depends on your taste).  If it's a string instrument, create a vertical cell for portamentos that you crossfade with the legato patch.  adjust the parameters to your liking; if the sustain patch plays when you want legato then move the slider to the left a bit.  You may have to make some minor adjustments here and there to get the artics you want to play when you want.

    I hope this helps Chris.  I'll never go back to ROMplers again!

    Hi Jasen 

    Thanks! Thats really helpful - I'm definitely going to go look at the speed function as soon as I've finished writing this.  I'm not so sure about VE/Pro. Intuitively I feel I'd rather have a set of templates for Logic, and as it's now 64 bit, hopefully thats do-able.

    What I want to be able to do is fire out pieces like this: www.soundseed.com/napier/soundtrack.mp3 - orchestral in scale, widely varying dynamics, fast passages, bombastic full on sections, but expressive/emotive elements too, e.g the three passages (start/mid/end) with VSL solo cello ....  I suppose my question might be: how much RAM and how much more VSL (I have SE extended) would I need to reach acceptable as mock up if pitching for work, or perhaps usable for lower budget productions/games? I'm on a 1st gen Mac Pro 2gb at the mo, and finances are severely limited being a student. (Hoping for an academic discount promo late this year from the nice VSL folks 😊

    Cheers

    Chris


  • No problem Chris,

    Here is a link to the video about the speed controlled matrices http://vsl.co.at/downloader.aspx?ID=2496 

    If that doesn't work go to http://vsl.co.at/en/211/1343/1348/1523/1148.vsl and then just watch the video or download it.  I think you'll find them helpful.

    Whatever you do, don't go back to ROMplers.  If you're trying to get you music into film/TV video games or online media you're going to have a hard time doing it with ROMplers.  I don't think there is a single music supervisor out there who'll accept ROM based orchestral samples as "broadcast quality."  Hip Hop and Rap are about the only genres that'll accept ROM based orchestral samples and, usually, only strings.

    As far as RAM requirements are concerned, you can get quite a lot of SE samples loaded with only 4 gig RAM in Vienna Ensemble.  I own some of the larger collections so I only use the SE to supplement my compositions but I generally record one instrument group at a time with seperate instances of VE.  For example, I'll load up my string ensemble, record and mix the string parts, bounce them to audio tracks then turn off the string ensemble instance and load up say the Brass and repeat.  It's a very efficient way of working.   


  • Hi Jasen

    Thanks again ... the videos are really useful. I definitely have to explore the VI more - the speed feature could definitely save me a lot of messing around. 

    Interesting points about working style ... it seems quite common for folks to work "off DAW" to a considerable extent, so the VSL stuff becomes realisation rather than composition. I have to confess, for my style of working that would be a real show-stopper. I really need to have everything to hand ... thats a fairly severe compositional weakness I guess, but it does have the advantage that I can change the whole in quite dramatic ways - especially structure and thematic variations - very quickly. If only I'd stuck it out beyond two piano lessons aged 12 :-)

    I'm intrigued about your Rompler point... there's no doubt, a lot of Rompler sounds are pretty darned grim compared to the sheer artistry and ear for detail that have gone into the VSL libraries. Yet, something I found quite odd - I used the VSL solo cello, default matrix in three sections of the orchestral piece, two are quite gently pedestrian, but the other is distinctly emotive - I found for some reason, the same cello in my quartet piece seems to sound more human in the orchestral piece than the quartet, where it is solely VSL voices - almost as if the limited expression of the rompler voices enhances the liveliness and realism of the VSL cello. Elsewhere, there are things like the extended bassoon run leading up to the first tutti where it is sitting back just enough that I wonder if the difference between rompler and VSL is pronounced enough to make a difference that anyone would really notice (apart from the bum note :-) ...

    When all's said and done though, I think upgrading ram is the way to go, maybe stretch to 10gb and hope that could hold the majority of the key SE patches to make an orchestra. Got a session player in today doing some guitar and stuff for me - more traditional song based material, so back to work. 

    Thanks again, I appreciate the points and insight. 

    Cheers

    Chris


  • Hi Chris,

      You got me thinking about the days on my old Korg Triton.  Yes, there was much more playing, and a lot less tweaking.  Ah well.  

      I've stayed away from theSpeed Control, preferring to put in the articulations w/ keyswitches.  It can be a long process.  My sense of Speed Control was that it only approximated what I wanted.  But I'm going to give it another try, as the alternatives have me tweaked out.

      Cheers,     Tom


  • PaulP Paul moved this topic from Orchestration & Composition on