When writing for orchestra, I want to keep my musicians challenged and "entertained" but my scores often have double bass parts which are long series of whole notes to keep the harmony anchored.  Sometimes when I try to give them something more interesting to do, that needed anchorage is lost.

Perhaps this is because some of my ideas are conceived at the piano where the left hand sustains a harmony while my right hand is doing something.

Any ideas on how I can keep my basses from falling asleep with boredom?  I've tried alternating octaves with intevening fifths, etc.

Any good orchestration guides/books that deal with this topic?

Thank you for your helpful answers.

 As a long-time amateur bassist (play primarily the solo literature now though), it struck me that some composers did tend to write boring bass parts (Copland is one example - though I do like his music).  It seems to me that it helps to think in terms of counterpoint when writing bass lines, rather than just vertical harmonic structure.  If thinking in terms of vertical structure, it can be helpful to use inversions - to not always give the root note to the bass.

As for actual bass parts, have a look at Beethoven and Brahms symphonies, Mahler's #1 and #2 also come to mind, as does some of the R. Strauss tone poems.

I remember writing a bass part that was really bad because I was concentrating on melody and countermelody and the bass was just the bottom notes of the harmony.  I think the way to avoid this is to think of it as someone playing an instrument - what do they want to do as they stand there in the orchestra?  Just saw away at the bottom of droning chords, or actually play a musical line?  Each part ideally should be an individual line that sounds good alone.  Not easy to do, though.  Bach was probably the greatest at that ever.  Beethoven wrote really good bass parts in his symphonies which were the first examples of separating the orchestral basses from cellos which they previously had been shackled with.

Not quite what I was suggesting. People work different ways, there are no rules.  I was saying your weak bass line is not because you wrote it on the piano. 

As Guy said each person works differently.  It might be bad to go into orchestration too soon as one might end up just playing with orchestral sounds and have no real musical ideas. This happens a lot especially with MIDI and film music.   Remember that Bach wrote the entire Art of Fugue with no scoring whatsoever - just pure, great notes.  On the other hand you might actually have a concept for specific instruments that is built into the music from the beginning so it would be good to just start writing the score.  The fact you mention that you think of it "as one" suggests that latter approach.  Copying scores is good but the best way nowadays to learn about orchestration is to do a serious MIDI performance of a classical piece.  I enjoyed doing those because it immerses you in the music as much or more than playing in an orchestra or conducting.

BTW Havergal Brian is a very interesting and bizarre composer.  I remember hearing the instrumentation list for his Gothic Symphony - it is huge, far bigger than R. Strauss or Mahler.  Do you have that list available Dave? I have an LP with it but not at hand.  I believe it is one of the largest orchestras ever assembled. Even so, it has been performed and recorded many times now.

 Holy crap!

I knew that thing was big.

All right, Bacal. This piece shouldn't take long at all.   Maybe a couple years, tops.  The Rite of Spring was a nice little exercise, but now you need to get to some real work.

I'm studying the Bach four part chorales-there's some great stuff there. The protestent chruch hymnals (sorry, I was born into it) actually have some fairly good examples of fine bass parts. Baroque composers were acutely aware of the issue you mention-look at Handel's Messiah and see what he does with the bass parts in his choral writing-now you're talking some complex counterpoint but still . .

On the subject of books that teach the subject,  I can't say it too many times- Harmony and Voice Leading by Edward Aldwell and Carl Schlachter (search Amazon.com) is the best ever. Next best and still very good since that first one is a platinum, is The Complete Musician by Steven G. Laitz. This book looks at counterpoint pretty closely where as Aldwell deals exactly in what his title says but he never  touches on the formal rules of the different species of counterpoint. Interestingly, if you can wade through it (and I mean as in getting out the hip waders),  Arnold Schoenberg's book entitled simply Tonal Harmony offers a light that has not been seen since, some of what he says is quite fascinating and is very useful while other parts are devoted to a mistaken concept of acoustics. It's pretty easy to leave that part behind; some of his examples have some fantastic bass parts. The book is available in a 'Lite' or student version so you can look at that too.

Those are all excellent ideas.  You already know what you are doing.  Especially dating a bass player!  On harp the main thing to remember is do NOT make it pianistic.  In some respects, the harp is lke a special color that comes in briefly then leaves, but should never drone on and on like a piano accompaniment.  Also it is fundamentally diatonic rather than chromatic so you have to think of the pedal settings.  But you probably already know all that.

your last post brings up an interesting question especially in reference to the Carmina Burana. There are lots of other pieces like that, which sound awesome overall, but are horrible to play for certain members of the orchestra.  For example - Mahler's 2nd.  That is maybe my all-time favorite work of any kind in any field of endeavor ever done by any human being.    And yet, I remember playing the fourth horn part in it and it was so BORING!  The part that is.  Just blowing like hell on doubled notes and not getting heard over the general pandemonium.  But to the audience it was wonderful.  Or another example - what in God's name does a poor little oboe player do in a Bruckner symphony with all those maniacal brass players roaring and blasting all around him?    Except in a rare solo, not a hell of a lot...

So does a composer care about that or not?  I tend to think of it as somewhat of a compromise. In other words, you could write something totally boring that would sound great when combined with the other sounds somewhat like a single note on an organ while boring in itself sounds great with all the others.  OR... you can just try to write as contrapuntal and musically interesting a line as you can that still sounds good overall.  It is a continual question, though obviously Bach accomplished something of an ideal with his treating absolutely every part like a melody (in his chorales at least). 

One other thing about this which also interests me a lot - I have realized that I am writing for smaller and simpler ensembles, and getting more interested in smaller combinations of instruments.  With a smaller orchestra or a chamber ensemble you naturally have more interesting parts to write because each instrument simply has to do more and can therefore become more expressive and interesting in itself.  When you write for a gigantic orchestra there are going to be more uninteresting parts inevitably.  

Thanks so much for that, that was a wonderful example of democracy of instrumental parts.  I am also pleased to see the first fiddle player who is from my small hometown in Idaho and now in one of Britain's premier quartets.

Here's to "thematische Arbeit" 

     This is some of the best advice given on this thread.  I hear so many people wanting to study orchestration as if it is the golden key to interesting composition when they truly lack a solid foundation in harmony, voice leading, and counterpoint.

     Last year I orchestrated some string sessions that involved the basses playing little more than a single note for two days of recordings.  Were the boring bass parts the fault my shortcomings as an orchestrator?  Certainly not.  The harmonic voicings of the composition gave me no other option.  Nearly every cue was over a pedal tone.  There was not enough harmonic development in the composition to allow any other orchestration.

     This recording received glowing reviews and some prestigious awards.  I think this is just the style that is accepted in many soundtracks these days.  Unfortunately, I sometimes think it is also because of the inability of some composers to think harmonically.  I'd love for us to get away from drum loops and pedal tones but that's what is selling these days.  Therefore many composers see no need to study more than the manuals of their sequencers and sample libraries.

     Read those harmony books, or take some classes.  Learn a little jazz piano or guitar and study some Bach chorales and inventions.  It will change the way you write in ways you can't imagine.

     Studying how to mix colors won't do much for an artist who can't conceive an interesting sketch.  Happy music making!