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Orchestral Template with VE Pro and Logic Pro 9 Tutorial
Last post Wed, Jul 28 2010 by Novatlan, 18 replies.
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Posted on Thu, Jun 10 2010 05:17
by Novatlan
Joined on Mon, Oct 12 2009, Bingen, Germany, Posts 168

Hello!
Over the last weeks I have written a tutorial on how to approach creating an orchestral template and how to actually set it up in Logic Pro 9.
I have included screenshots of the most important steps and am now looking for your feedback on improving the tutorial.
I hope it is ok that I post here; as it pertains exclusively to VE Pro this seemed to be the right spot. You can find the tutorial at http://novatlan-sound.de/blog.php
Feedback greatly appreciated :) Tobias

PC i7 3930K, 64GB Ram, RME Fireface UCX, Win 10 Pro
Posted on Fri, Jun 11 2010 23:41
by igor
Joined on Mon, Jul 31 2006, California, Posts 25

I just read through it.  Great work!  I have a question for you, if you don't mind.

I'm running VEP in Logic 9.1.1 64 on a single computer with 26GB  RAM.  It's one of the '08 Intel Xeon 8-cores.  I've been noticing a lot of Logic "System Overload" problems.  I have a LOT running through VEP (roughly 4 GB on the Kontakt server running in VEP64, and then some other stuff in VEP32).  And I notice that, even when I simply hit play in a section where no instruments are playing, the first 7 of my 8 cores are consistently in the Red, which of course stops the Audio Engine and gives me that beautiful little "System Overload" popup.

Does this make any sense to you?  Now, one way in which my setup is different is, since I'm running my template from the same machine as my DAW, I'm not bothering with External midi or IAC bussing and such.  Just loading up VEP (64) straight into Logic and let it do its beautiful work.

Any suggestions?  I've already got I/O Buffer to 1024.

Posted on Fri, Jun 11 2010 23:43
by igor
Joined on Mon, Jul 31 2006, California, Posts 25

oh yeah, and this is strange... the problem seems to get worse as the computer is left on.  Not necessarily even being used.  Just left on.  After a reboot, once I load up the mega-template into VEP and run Logic the first time, all is well (relatively speaking).  If I leave it for a couple hours and return to it... "System Overload." 

Posted on Sat, Jun 12 2010 07:12
by iBeatz
Joined on Fri, Dec 26 2008, Los Angeles, Posts 8
I'm having the same problem running a 2008 8 core mac pro. After 30 min to an hour I get huge core spikes. I'm running VSl on kontakt 4.1 instances in vsl pro server (64bit) and a few AU instruments in Vsl pro (32_ bit)

I'm also experiencing a ton of crashes with this set-up. I have 20 gigs of RAM installed.
Posted on Sat, Jun 12 2010 18:53
by igor
Joined on Mon, Jul 31 2006, California, Posts 25

Interesting.  Identical systems.  Identical problems.  I hope someone at VSL is reading these. Smile

Posted on Sat, Jun 12 2010 19:47
by threetwo
Joined on Sun, Jun 21 2009, Posts 9
Perhaps unrelated, perhaps not -- but I used to see my CPU usage get higher and higher with time until I got dropouts & clicks. Eventually I discovered it had to do with the effects that I had inserted. In particular, my Vienna Suite convolution reverb was on the culprit tracks. Once I had played a single note on a track, the CPU jumped and stayed there forever. Since I had lots of VE Pro instances on many tracks, as I played more instruments, the CPU usage got worse. I solved the problem, for me at least, by moving all of my effects out of Logic and into VE Pro. Won't be a good solution for everyone, but if you have effects inserted, try disabling them and see if your problem reduces or disappears.
Posted on Sun, Jun 13 2010 21:08
by igor
Joined on Mon, Jul 31 2006, California, Posts 25

Right now the only FX in my Logic template are 2 instances of Altiverb and an instance of Waves L2.  Nothing else.  And I can't really move those sorts of things to VEP because I'd lose the ability to bus those FX across all VEP instances.  And with like 15-20 instances of VEP, I'd need approximately that many Altiverbs, which would tax the CPU significantly more.

Posted on Wed, Jun 16 2010 20:53
by hazza
Joined on Mon, Jun 13 2005, London, Posts 36

Same problem here - Nehalem 8-core 2.26 16GB. After a reboot things are generally ok, however I have found that certain Logic projects are susceptible to audio engine overloads after a period of time working on them. In fact I have noticed that the Logic project file sizes increase steadily each time I save - one 20 min cue ended up as 100MB last week, I couldn't hit play without the audio collapsing instantly. But then on a new save the size will drop to 50MB and it's playable again. Other big 16GB-maxed projects run without a hitch.

Looking at Logic CPU monitor all the overload activity is on the last 2 cores, however in Activity Monitor both 64 and 32 bit VE Pro instances remain at 100 - 120% even while Logic is stopped. Logic remains at around 50%. This is without a software instrument track as "midi thru" record enabled. I'm using around 8 frames of VSL, Kontakt 3.5 (4.1 upgrade tomorrow) and Omnishpere, with quite a few Altiverbs, EXSs, Plays etc in Logic.

Would sure love to find a checklist of buffer / settings / guidelines for getting a big template to run smoothly in Logic with VE Pro.

Posted on Mon, Jul 26 2010 23:09
by PaulM
Joined on Mon, May 08 2006, SURREY, ENGLAND, Posts 112

....And another one here...same deal...kontakt 4.1 / Logic studio / VE PRO / 8core / 20 gigs RAM / MAC XEON 3.0 /   one cpu is spiking while others are quiet and it gradually gets progressively worse over time....

PaulM
Posted on Mon, Jul 26 2010 23:29
by igor
Joined on Mon, Jul 31 2006, California, Posts 25

ungh, this is still a big problem for me as well.  Best I can figure out... it's probably a good idea to:

a.) turn off multi-core in Kontakt

b.) set VEP to only 1 thread

c.) set up your Logic channel strips so that they're approximately evenly dispersed among different Aux Busses, all of which then lead into either a master bus or simply the main Out.

From what I've read, Logic will split up core activity per Channel Strip.  And since the Master Out is technically a channel strip, then sending all your VEP channel strips there at once can cause Logic to use only the one core (and of course overload it).

HOWEVER,... (and this is a big "but")... this "solution" doesn't really work for me.  And by "really" I mean at all.  I still get CPU spikes after about an hour of use, which prohibit me from using anything too big.

And forget about using any big Multis (eg: LASS auto-arranger multi.)  Those cause such massive spikes that I can't even use a single instance (or play a single note).  And yet when I load one of these ginormous multis directly into an otherwise empty Logic session, lo and behold it works perfectly.  

So to sum:  

- Load "X" into VEP template = CPU spike.  
- Load "X" into empty Logic session = A-okay.

Now explain that one to me.

Posted on Tue, Jul 27 2010 07:29
by Novatlan
Joined on Mon, Oct 12 2009, Bingen, Germany, Posts 168
Sorry for not replaying, I totally forgot :( You should have sent me an angry email...

It seems you have similar experiences with VE Pro than I have with EW Play. For me, VE works pretty good. Maybe you could try my settings, it may help:
- 1 core per VE Instance
- Instances on the MacPro use Kontakt 3.5 32bit with the memory server activated
- Instances on the PC use Kontakt 3.5 in 64bit.
- In Logic, every section splits into two busses: Instruments which need reverb and instruments which don't. I have about 40 busses in Logic.
I have Kontakt 4, but since 3.5 works great I did not update my template to K4. I however use K4 within Logic.
Core distribution is pretty even.

If you have issues with core distribution: Use the I/O plugin with "output larger than 0" and bypass switched on. Then Logic will use another core for this track.

But I don't have LASS or other fancy libraries, I simply cannot afford them.

On my Mac Pro I have one instance with a number of Play instruments. Works reasonably well, but creates CPU spikes now and then, but it is usable.

The only issue that I have is that sometimes, notes will hang. Then I just go into VE Pro and mute/unmute that track. Happens every few minutes, very annoying, but nothing tooooooo bad. I hope Vienna will fix this eventually.

Do you think it would be good if I included an overview of my setup in the template? Maybe by chance I found a setup that works reasonably well.

EDIT: Why are there no line breaks?
PC i7 3930K, 64GB Ram, RME Fireface UCX, Win 10 Pro
Posted on Tue, Jul 27 2010 08:55
by PaulM
Joined on Mon, May 08 2006, SURREY, ENGLAND, Posts 112

Hey Novation

I would love to see an overview - I must be honest I see no difference in core processer usage when I use the I/O pligin and setting you describe... maybe include a screen shot of that?

many thanks for your help

Paul

PaulM
Posted on Wed, Jul 28 2010 01:46
by igor
Joined on Mon, Jul 31 2006, California, Posts 25

Hi Novatlan.  Not sure what you mean by "I/O plugin with 'output larger than 0' and bypss switched on."

Is this a setting in Logic, VEP, or Kontakt?

Posted on Wed, Jul 28 2010 14:42
by Novatlan
Joined on Mon, Oct 12 2009, Bingen, Germany, Posts 168
It is a plugin in Logic. Sometimes (I don't know why) Logic screws up core distribution. Using this plugin makes it use another core, usually a "better" one :)
PC i7 3930K, 64GB Ram, RME Fireface UCX, Win 10 Pro
Posted on Wed, Jul 28 2010 14:53
by PaulM
Joined on Mon, May 08 2006, SURREY, ENGLAND, Posts 112
Novatlan wrote:
Using this plugin makes it use another core, usually a "better" one :)

mmmm :-(  I seem to have seen no evidence of this 'core diverting' on my system using this..

P

PaulM
Posted on Wed, Jul 28 2010 15:41
by igor
Joined on Mon, Jul 31 2006, California, Posts 25

Ah, I see it.  Why Output larger than 0?  And doesn't turning on Bypass deactivate the plugin?

Posted on Wed, Jul 28 2010 15:53
by PaulM
Joined on Mon, May 08 2006, SURREY, ENGLAND, Posts 112

"output larger than 0" - get whatever is routed down it to the output you select... as for the bypass... it beats me... !!

I tried it both ways [bypassed / unbypassed] on insts / auxs/ rev returns / .audio channels......everything.....and it did F**k all!!  ;)0

Do let me know if you get it do work!!

PaulM
Posted on Wed, Jul 28 2010 17:45
by Novatlan
Joined on Mon, Oct 12 2009, Bingen, Germany, Posts 168
As I said. Sometimes Logic has problems distributing core load. If this trick has no effect then Logic manages the cores correctly. I sometimes have to tuse it when I have lots of EW Play instances in my Projects. As or the bypass: It doesn't consume CPU this way.
PC i7 3930K, 64GB Ram, RME Fireface UCX, Win 10 Pro
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