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Vienna Imperial : ON/OFF Sustain Pedal !
Last post Sat, Mar 16 2019 by PaoloT, 27 replies.
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Posted on Mon, Jul 12 2010 11:07
by aile
Joined on Mon, Jan 25 2010, Posts 29
There are 100 velocities and many other niceties but what about the sustain pedal is only ONE level of action (On / Off).
Is possible / thinkable add more intermediate levels?
This is not a detail but a useful resource to fade or for greater transparency.
I wonder if you can schedule this improvement.
Thanks
Elia user
Elia user, Italy Padova
Posted on Tue, Jul 13 2010 08:07
by mpower88
Joined on Thu, Aug 12 2004, Posts 729

+1  :-)

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Posted on Tue, Jul 13 2010 22:25
by aile
Joined on Mon, Jan 25 2010, Posts 29
I own an old digital piano Kawai ConcertArtist 1200 (year 2000). I used the audio inputs on the piano to play/compare Vienna Imperial. There is no doubt that Vienna Imperial is considerably higher than for the tonal range (for example). Is a pity that the sustain pedal lacks the same expressive power. Would be useful if users can get an indication of any developments.
Thanks,
Elia user
Elia user, Italy Padova
Posted on Sun, Aug 01 2010 14:25
by gs_vsl
Joined on Sat, Jan 23 2010, Posts 48
Part of the problem here is that some sequencers (e.g. Cubase), will only send two possible values for CC64. Even if you add a message for CC64=96, for example, it will translate this to something else. There is a trick where you can use the input transformer to convert other CCs to CC64, but it's not ideal.
Posted on Sun, Dec 19 2010 16:59
by julien breval
Joined on Thu, Feb 05 2009, Posts 7
Hello,

I am interested in the Vienna Imperial but I need a continuous sustain pedal too. Was there an update since? Or a workaround?


Best regards
-j
Posted on Mon, Dec 20 2010 04:44
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1942

the midi spec has CC64 as a switch, per se, not a continuous controller. it isn't 'cubase', is isn't 'vsl', CC64 is on/off. the values are [off=0-63], [on=64-127]. the mechanism of a sustain pedal tends to be a switch. the lane for CC64 in cubase knows that it is a switch. entered with a pencil tool, there will be no finer values displayed in this lane, they have no meaning.

gs_vsl wrote:
Part of the problem here is that some sequencers (e.g. Cubase), will only send two possible values for CC64. Even if you add a message for CC64=96, for example, it will translate this to something else. There is a trick where you can use the input transformer to convert other CCs to CC64, but it's not ideal.
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Posted on Mon, Dec 20 2010 10:39
by julien breval
Joined on Thu, Feb 05 2009, Posts 7
All right, but the continuous pedal data can be sent to software using a MIDI control change that is not CC64. I guess one problem is that the half-pedal effect cannot really be sampled (it has to be synthezised).
Posted on Tue, Dec 21 2010 13:16
by doubleattack
Joined on Fri, Jul 09 2010, Leipzig, Germany, Posts 237

 Don't want to disturb the thread and maybe I'm not up to date, but in which tune of classical music the composer required half pedal?

If I let go the pedal to slow I get a awful release-noise which I want to avoid for the world! Why should this be sampled? Some people are ranting about bad tuning and you want bad pedaling? 

For experimental and modern music I suppose it's better to use the real thing. 500 GB! Still not yet enough...      

Posted on Wed, Dec 22 2010 21:50
by julien breval
Joined on Thu, Feb 05 2009, Posts 7
Given that many composers did not even specify normal pedals on their scores, I cannot remember of any 19th or older piece featuring explicit half pedals. But when playing this repertoire, half pedal has two uses, at least for me --- The first one occurs when playing an old piece in a dry room with a modern piano. Contemporary pianos have very efficient dampers that can cut the sound in far less time than the ones of old pianos, which is not always required. If the acoustics are dry, you can compensate for this adding, say, "one eighth" of pedal (you can think of it as a reverb that still keeps the notes "spatially separated"). In practice, you can just put your foot on the pedal but not depress it --- The second use for continuous pedal is when the composition, at a given moment, includes both a long bass note (that you have to keep) and some medium chords and lines. Once the bass note is played, you need both hands for the chords and lines so the bass has to be kept long using the pedal. If you use full pedal, the chords/lines are too blurred and confuse. If you don't use it at all, the bass cannot be kept. In this case, it is recommended to use "a fraction of pedal" which provides with a compromise between bass keeping and medium clarity, because the bass notes last longer than the high notes for any pedal fraction. Piano works by Ravel, Debussy or Rachmaninov often need this special use of the pedal. At their time, there was no sostenuto pedal but I guess this 3rd pedal was the ultimate solution to this problem --- EDIT I forgot a third case that is very common: when resetting a full pedal quickly between two chords, you often do not release the pedal completely, so that the two chords are slightly "crossfaded" --- When using half pedals, of course, if the dampers are not tuned correctly, it does not work very well and, you are right, lots of pianos cannot be used for proper continous pedaling. As continuous pedal is often changed dynamically while playing (sometimes on each note), it looks difficult to sample it anyway, so I would personally do it in synthesis (and I agree 500GB is enough:). Sorry carriage returns are not supported, right? I promise not posting anything that long later.
Posted on Wed, Dec 22 2010 22:09
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1942

Right. but there must be a continuous controller mechanism. AFAICT most sustain pedals made to perform the function in MIDI are just a switch.

julien breval wrote:
All right, but the continuous pedal data can be sent to software using a MIDI control change that is not CC64. I guess one problem is that the half-pedal effect cannot really be sampled (it has to be synthezised).
MacBookPro 18,3
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Mac OS 12.3.1
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Posted on Thu, Dec 23 2010 23:20
by kamczak
Joined on Fri, Jun 26 2009, Posts 22
civilization 3 wrote:
most sustain pedals made to perform the function in MIDI are just a switch.

I don't have much experience with various controllers, but the two I used are Korg SP-250 and Yamaha P-120. The former has 4 pedal positions (sth like 0, 30, 70, 127), the latter has many (0,8,16,24,...,127).

Of course you can use the way of thinking practiced in Apple - "We say you don't need it, so you think you don't need it" - but it ain't gonna convince me. There are other genres of music than classical ( Confused ), where between two different chords it's nice to make a fade out of the first one before hitting the next one, but you don't want to cut the first one immediately, because you have built up many notes...

And if you're only playing what's written in the notes, then you can be exchanged for a midi sequencer and I am pretty sure it's going to play more exactly what's written there.

Posted on Fri, Dec 24 2010 03:56
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1942

I have a vague memory of a sus pedal with a DX7 I expected to get a couple positions out of when I first started working in a DAW. It seems like their would be a market for such an item.

if someone has something that'll output something beyond a switch (and there's an instrument that this will mean something to) this will a problem for a transform function in the sequencer. Cubase has one, Logic has one...

If I were any keyboardist I think I'd want it for piano libraries. When I thought to do it, I was trying to work a grand piano library. I've a strong impression I was frustrated by this, and I'm no pianist. If there's a demand there should arise a supply..

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Posted on Thu, Jan 06 2011 17:44
by aile
Joined on Mon, Jan 25 2010, Posts 29

Continuous pedal is a natural need for a classical pianist. The use of the sustain pedal is very important for the management of the sound ...

You might make a similar speech to the left pedal (soft pedal)... There is no need to continue with a digital piano (at least until now), you should purchase a traditional acoustic piano...

I congratulate the excellent VSL work.
My (theoretical) request is aimed to understand if there are margins to "improve " without invalidating the original design.

(For example, the time length of the notes is handled with loops and with algorithms: it is not possible to sample infinite temporal duration.
you can manage the sustain pedal through algorithms? (I think in particular of the roland vpiano and technology supernatural))

Thanks

Elia user, Italy Padova
Posted on Wed, Mar 16 2011 21:03
by jerales
Joined on Sun, Jan 24 2010, Posts 3
I'll be next user who is awaiting half-pedaling in VI. It's so confusing - I'm using pedal only a little bit, but there is rapidly full amount of resonance :-(
Posted on Thu, Mar 17 2011 01:19
by andyjh
Joined on Wed, Dec 15 2010, Posts 600

gs_vsl wrote:
Part of the problem here is that some sequencers (e.g. Cubase), will only send two possible values for CC64. Even if you add a message for CC64=96, for example, it will translate this to something else. There is a trick where you can use the input transformer to convert other CCs to CC64, but it's not ideal.
 

Cubase records and plays pack all 127 values for CC64, I have a Kawai MP10 piano with half (multiple) pedaling, and Cubase deals with that all OK,  I'm not really convinced that half pedaling is of much use though, proper control of the damper pedal is all that is needed really.

Posted on Fri, Mar 18 2011 19:25
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1942

andyjh wrote:

gs_vsl wrote:
two possible values for CC64
 

all 127 values for CC64

 Try using the pencil tool in the [CC64] controller lane in cubase key editor to draw something more complex - doesn't happen. Pencil in a value over 64 and the entire lane is red/ON. Until you pencil in somewhere 0-63, to turn it off.

 

EDIT (researching, found this old thread: This is true but it's misleading. Cubase used to do exactly this, to emulate hardware which does specifically this but in fact CC64 is a continuous controller (and current Cubase does not do this).

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Posted on Sat, Mar 19 2011 10:05
by andyjh
Joined on Wed, Dec 15 2010, Posts 600

 CC's by their very definition are continuous controllers, where something has an on/off state, the MIDI spec clarifies the toggle point (value 63 - 64, as you mentioned), but CC64 is continuous (0 to 127). 

Cubase quantizes the CC64 value in the Key Editor display, you can see why this was done, but perhaps with modern piano sounds getting into the area of half pedalling, maybe this Cubase function is due for an update.

However, I don't see much point in entering half pedalling data in step time, if anyone is serious enough about their piano sound to require half pedalling , then I cannot believe they are going to be step entering things. Realtime performance of CC64 is recorded and played back well within Cubase. You can also go to the LIST editor to see and edit this data if really required.

If you must use the key editor, then using CC63 instead, and using the transform MIDI data to add 1 to the control value 1 will output CC64 without the quantised function that Cubase has on the CC64 in the Key editor. 

So although this shows that Cubase can deal with any value of CC64, it doesn't alter the fact that original post here was about Vienna Imperial not offering half pedalling functionality, so the limitation remains in that area and not within Cubase.  I'm sure a half pedalling option could be implemented into Vienna Imperial, as it is a dedicated player, and although we shouldn't expect half pedalling samples, a pseudo half pedall function could be implemented by reducing the normal release samples length.

Posted on Sun, Mar 20 2011 03:37
by pianosound
Joined on Fri, Oct 02 2009, Posts 41
I teach my students, after a large FF section, to 'feather the pedal', bringing the volume slowly down to the next volume level. Pedal technique is probably as important as any dynamic technique, and I start teaching it around the intermediate level. And although I love VSL products, even hopeing to have 'Vienna Imperial' someday, I have to admit that Ivory 2 now has 'half pedaling' and 'sympathetic resonance'. Two things that have really changed up my technique in playing a piano VI, and the end result in the recording.
Knowing VSL,,,, I'm sure they are probably working on it as we speak, because next to adjustabel hammer and pedal sounds, these two are very important to the realism of any recording!! Mike
PT's 003r, 10/11 | Win 7 64 bit | i7 920 | 12 gigs ram | VeP, VIP, Solo Strings | Waves Platinum | Ivory 2 |
Posted on Fri, Jun 14 2013 01:00
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1942
andyjh wrote:

 CC's by their very definition are continuous controllers, where something has an on/off state, the MIDI spec clarifies the toggle point (value 63 - 64, as you mentioned), but CC64 is continuous (0 to 127).

I see. The MIDI spec is a recommendation. I just had it explained to me from a technical standpoint. in the beginning we have an analog pedal that is translated into MIDI code and there is no unlawful value per se.

the instrument has to be able to do something with values other than ≤63 = off, ≥64 = on for this to have any meaning. I've seen CC64 lanes with more than the two values, but the instrument didn't do anything with that.

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Posted on Tue, Oct 02 2018 17:08
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1328

Is there any chance the half-pedal will be added to the Vienna Imperial? I know VSL is now focused on other pianos and technologies, but the Vienna Imperial is still a unique library, with particular strenghts, and a great and unrivalled sound.

It would be a shame not to complete it. I guess half-pedal could be simulated with some mixing between the pedal up and down samples. It should be satisfactory enough, and not a major programming challenge. Despite its age, it would be still an top piano, with all the needed features in a modern library.

The Böse is the piano I would go first for Bartók or Prokofiev. It's not a second choice.

Paolo

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