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Posted on Fri, Apr 04 2014 02:20
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5726

edit: on second thought, I should not comment on this topic any more!

Posted on Wed, Apr 16 2014 10:46
by Steve Steele
Joined on Sun, Dec 04 2011, Posts 92

I'm sorry my friend but muting and unmuting folders is nothing at all like Chunks. Not even close. First of all you can mute and unmute folders in DP. In fact you can disable VIs (which is like muting but it removes the VI from memory therefore freeing up resources).

Chuncks is a completly different level of workflow. You can have multiple sequences in DP (called Chuncks), the when you've finished your cue (sequence), you can arrange ALL of your cues in a Song. A Song in DP is a collection of Chunks. In other words, it's all of your cues in one window which you get to arrange by draging around icons that represent the cues.

Each sequence can have a whole templae of MIDI tracks, while the VIs are in DP's vrack (all sequences access the VIs in the vrack), or the VIs could be in VEPro. It works either way.

For film composers, this means you could playback an entire soundtrack in the Song window without touching the computer. I have sequences with my full orchestral template of MIDI tracks, and DP with Chuncks in the Song window will playback all of my orchestral cues synced to a movie. 

No other DAW has this feature (that I'm aware of). Check out this video. javascript:mctmp(0);

http://youtu.be/9cbwmmTzGMk

That being said, I sometimes use Logic and enjoy it. I think Cubase is very good for midi orchstral as well.

Btw, the same guy who coded the early version of Performer (the pre-DP DAW MIDI sequencer), also wrote the early code for midi in Pro Tools.

Cheers!

Regards,
Steve Steele
https://www.stevesteele.com
Posted on Tue, Apr 22 2014 22:44
by imzadim
Joined on Mon, Nov 23 2009, Posts 35
There was a survey on the VI-Control forum and Cubase was the most popular DAW by a large margin. Second Logic and third DP.




Many of the composers on the VI forum tend to be younger, so that might be why DP didn't get more votes, which is still very popular among more veteran composers, but in general Cubase tend to be more common, especially with European composers. DP has lost a lot of ground and Cubase seems to work better with VEP, so I think this tendency will continue.




For recording PT is the undisputed champion, of course.




I think DP is still the best software for film scoring as far as features and workflow goes, but the lack of support for VEP is becoming a deal breaker for me, so I might switch to Cubase.
Posted on Wed, Apr 23 2014 00:05
by Steve Steele
Joined on Sun, Dec 04 2011, Posts 92

Good reply. That's exactly right. I believe that MOTU is going to add VST3 support to both their OSX and Windows versions of DP in an upcoming update but that is only speculation. MOTU has not said anything about that directly. Having VST3 support and a Windows version could help DP sales quite a bit with users relying on VEPro considering what a great DAW it is otherwise, and MOTU is well aware of the VEPro issue. I was considering a switch to Cubase too, or at least using both for different tasks (DP is a great audio DAW too), but am going to stick it out to see what happens.

Regards,
Steve Steele
https://www.stevesteele.com
Posted on Wed, Apr 23 2014 01:45
by Errikos
Joined on Tue, Jun 12 2007, Posts 1114

Is there someone here that has worked orchestra on both Logic (X preferably) AND DP (8 preferably)? Which program have you found easier and the most efficient - as well as efficacious of course, for MIDI sculpting (VSL instruments) and CC lanes? Please state your reasons on prefering one program to the other, thanks. Also, I wonder how steep you'd consider the learning curve switching from Logic to DP.

If you can't notate/MIDI it yourself, it's NOT your music!

In these modern days to be vulgar, illiterate, common and vicious, seems to give a man a marvelous infinity of rights that his honest fathers never dreamed of. - Oscar Wilde
Posted on Wed, Apr 23 2014 03:23
by Steve Steele
Joined on Sun, Dec 04 2011, Posts 92

Errikos - I have used both Logic 9 and DP8 on large orchestral projects. On an indie film project I did last year I got a good opportunity to compare Logic and DP for myself. I composed some cues in Logic and some in DP to answer the very same questions you're asking yourself. I'd be glad to tell you what I found out. I'm replying on an iPad right now but when I get to my studio tonight I'll reply with some concrete examples that you can try for yourself if you like. I take it you have Logic X from your other posts, but I recommend that you download the 30-day demo of DP8 from the MOTU site so you can try a few things that I'll mention for yourself and see which way of working you like better.

Regards,
Steve Steele
https://www.stevesteele.com
Posted on Wed, Apr 23 2014 10:10
by Errikos
Joined on Tue, Jun 12 2007, Posts 1114

Thanks for taking the trouble, I look forward to your post.

If you can't notate/MIDI it yourself, it's NOT your music!

In these modern days to be vulgar, illiterate, common and vicious, seems to give a man a marvelous infinity of rights that his honest fathers never dreamed of. - Oscar Wilde
Posted on Tue, Apr 29 2014 18:06
by Steve Steele
Joined on Sun, Dec 04 2011, Posts 92

Errikos - I haven't forgot about you. I'll reply soon. I was going to give you a side by side breakdown of how I felt while I was working in both. The bottom line basically is I enjoyed sketching in Logic. Logic can be fun. But when things get serious I move over to DP because of a few features like Chunks, DP's incredibly tight marking and synching with video, track groups, being able to enable and disable any track in real time (not freeze tracks) which removes resources if needed without losing anything, every MIDI track is multitimbral, DP's Bundle's feature. I prefer DP's audio editing. MIDI editing is a personal preference. I like things about both, but feel more comfortable editing MIDI in DP. DP can read AUs, VSTs and MAS. Logic just AU.

I'll reply back later with a better comparison (haven't slept in two days). I do like Logic. But I default to DP for almost all styles, especially orchestral and film.

But, if you do well in Logic, there are many many great composers using Logic. The guy from Spitfire Audio hs a huge Logic based rig. The guys from CineSamples (except for one guy who uses DP). I know thee are deveolpers, but the guy from Spitfire is a working composer and his name just poped into my tired brain.

I'll get back when I'm more together.

Regards,
Steve Steele
https://www.stevesteele.com
Posted on Tue, Apr 29 2014 20:08
by Errikos
Joined on Tue, Jun 12 2007, Posts 1114

Thanks for remembering nad for all this useful information. I have used Logic for years, I can't say I am unhappy with it (I wish it had those Expression Maps), but I am much more musician than engineer and I am trying to determine which of the main three DAWs is the most user-friendly, without having to sacrifice quality. I am someone that doesn't use external effects-hardware or other companies' plug-ins (save for VSL). How would you compare the quality of Logic's effects and plug-ins to those of DP's and Cubase's for serious orchestral and film work? Please note that I work from Sibelius to DAW, not the other way around.

When you're feeling rested of course.

If you can't notate/MIDI it yourself, it's NOT your music!

In these modern days to be vulgar, illiterate, common and vicious, seems to give a man a marvelous infinity of rights that his honest fathers never dreamed of. - Oscar Wilde
Posted on Wed, Apr 30 2014 01:05
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5726

I have realized I should not comment on many topics here.  Of course, current film composers tend to set me off so I should refrain.  Sorry!

Posted on Thu, May 01 2014 04:52
by LAJ
Joined on Sun, Dec 13 2009, Posts 545
Errikos wrote:

Thanks for remembering nad for all this useful information. I have used Logic for years, I can't say I am unhappy with it (I wish it had those Expression Maps), but I am much more musician than engineer and I am trying to determine which of the main three DAWs is the most user-friendly, without having to sacrifice quality. I am someone that doesn't use external effects-hardware or other companies' plug-ins (save for VSL). How would you compare the quality of Logic's effects and plug-ins to those of DP's and Cubase's for serious orchestral and film work? Please note that I work from Sibelius to DAW, not the other way around.

When you're feeling rested of course.

Errikos,

I use Logic X and Wavelab 8 which containes all Cubase Effects as well ... so I know both internal Effects. Especially the lastest Plug ins in Cubase 7.5 and WL 8 are better in quality, Even for Composers. Agree?

Windows 11, Cubase 12

Posted on Fri, May 02 2014 21:29
by Errikos
Joined on Tue, Jun 12 2007, Posts 1114

I have to take your word for it, I haven't tried them. It seems a tough pill to swallow though that Wavelab would have better plug-ins and effects than Logic.

If you can't notate/MIDI it yourself, it's NOT your music!

In these modern days to be vulgar, illiterate, common and vicious, seems to give a man a marvelous infinity of rights that his honest fathers never dreamed of. - Oscar Wilde
Posted on Sat, May 03 2014 07:31
by LAJ
Joined on Sun, Dec 13 2009, Posts 545

Wavelab and Cubase are double as expensive as Logic. So, it is more than fair that they share the same effects.

The reason for Steinbergs new quality is that that they hire the old Partners from Wizoo since quite a while. Everyone who knows Wizoo-Products will know what that means for quality. For example ... there is a new Reverb in Cubase 7.5 and it is made by the Guy who created the legendary WizooVerb Plug in. But it is only the algorithmic Part of WizooVerb (there was a convolutionpart too ... maybe in Cubase 8?? ... who knows ...)

Unfortunatly this great Reverb is not in WL 8 yet ... maybe in 8.5 ...

That is why many People think, that Cubase takes the lead in Future Development. I agree.

Windows 11, Cubase 12

Posted on Sat, May 03 2014 09:37
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2747

There are great reverbs in Logic like the "Space Design". But the best is MIR 

MacBook Pro 2019 16" + 2 x Odisseey G9 49"

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd

Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series, Many Synchronised libs
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 2, Art Conductor, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Sat, May 03 2014 14:43
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
Errikos wrote:

I have to take your word for it, I haven't tried them. It seems a tough pill to swallow though that Wavelab would have better plug-ins and effects than Logic.

I think that a DAW does not stand or fall by the included plugs and
instruments, unless they are something that you can't buy 3rd party. I would say
that the features and performance should be the thing that persuades you to use one DAW over another.


Having said that, if I was primarily a Logic user I wouldn't use any of the
built in plugs, except for the Delay, as I can get way better plugs elsewhere.


DG


Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Sat, May 03 2014 22:59
by Errikos
Joined on Tue, Jun 12 2007, Posts 1114

Thank you all guys for your input, I was trying to gauge from you which DAW you thought had the better EQs, Compressors, Reverbs, etc., on its own, otherwise I know that there are dedicated companies of software and hardware plug-ins, even this company's own Vienna Suite and MIR.

If you can't notate/MIDI it yourself, it's NOT your music!

In these modern days to be vulgar, illiterate, common and vicious, seems to give a man a marvelous infinity of rights that his honest fathers never dreamed of. - Oscar Wilde
Posted on Wed, May 07 2014 06:21
by Steve Steele
Joined on Sun, Dec 04 2011, Posts 92

Errikos - Again, sorry for the delay. Was out of town.

About plugins between DP and Logic. As of Logic 9 vs DP 6 or 7, Logic has had way many more plugins which helped it's popularity (MOTU has a way of being late with these things). And Logic's plugins are exceptional. Apple continues to add nice pop music plugins (like the drummer feature, and the amp sims). There are some handy plugins unique to Logic that DP does not have (Test Oscillator, Exciter, Grooveshifter, Sub Bass, Pitch Shifter - as a plugin , but DP has it like melodyne, built into the waveform. I think Logic X has this now?), BPM Counter - as a plugin, and some of the Dist, Delay, Filter and Modulation plugins. DP does have different takes of some of these.

On the other hand, DP 7 and 8 added some nice plugins itself. (check out this web page http://www.motu.com/products/software/dp/plug-ins.html).

Some of the highlights are speaker cabinet rooms for guitar and bass (fairly unique - almost MIR like), a very nice dynamic EQ, a wonderful phase correction plugin (I use it all the time), a 5-band MS dynamic EQ, a de-esser that's a one band dynamic EQ, a sub-kick bass drum enhancer, a deep ensemble chorus, the Masterworks series Comp, Limiter, EQ (very nice) and a LA-2A clone leveler.

Some of DP's unique plugins are Pattern Gate, POLAR (a RAM based loop recorder - great for vocal re-takes), an MS decoder, a Moog style multi mode filter, and the assortment of Delay, Dist, Modulation, Filter and Reverb types.

It's fairly even now, but with Logic having a few more plugins, both having high end plugins, but DP having a small handful of killer plugins that Logic doesn't have, and visa versa. Logic's Space Designer is roughly equal to DP's utilitarian ProVerb. Both are great, but neither is AltiVerb.

Also, DP has had MIDI plugins and Spectral Effects  for 20 years, (can edit pitch, time and formant, like flex time but without the ability to automate speed and pitch together - for the tape machine stop effect for example).

DP has part of VocAlign built in.

DP does not have Apple Loops (but can use them, nor does it have the new drummer feature). DP does not have a decent sampler nor many VIs (this is where Logic KILLS DP). One has to buy DP's VIs separately (a stupid move IMO)

Overall, except for VIs, they just about even each other out. I'd give Logic the edge but with DP having a few killer must haves.

I know I'm leaving something out but that's a pretty decent breakdown I think. Go to that link above and you'll see for yourself.

If there is one DAW that comes with enough VIs and plugins to do a pro production out of the box, it's Logic. Cubase has it's good plugins (Halion, Padshop and many many others), DP does have MachFive which is great, but is not included with DP (MOTU hear's from me often about this), but regardless which DAW one chooses in our business we all need Kontakt pretty much anyway.

Logic is a great DAW. Overall DP does certain things better, IMO. There are a lot of Cubase users here, but there are a lot of strengths to Cubase, Logic and DP (and Pro Tools too), and I like having three of them generally - DP, Logic and PT. Together they cover so much ground and I like switching to Logic for some things, and back to DP for others. No big deal to me.

I'd like note Expressions, but I can live without. I'm waiting to find out if VEPro and DP are having issues (mentioned in another thread), but I see no reason to leave DP for Cubase. I see no reason to leave Logic for anything. But I see very good reasons to learn a couple of contrasting DAWs. It doesn't take much time as there is a lot of cross over.

Hope that helps. I'll try to add a lot more detail to the DP vs Logic orchestral music comparison soon. DP wins, IMO, for a couple of very important reasons, but you have no reason to stop using Logic for orchestral music if you're getting the job done IMO. Logic's score editor is actually is better than DP (but I use Sibelius anyway).

Regards,
Steve Steele
https://www.stevesteele.com
Posted on Thu, May 08 2014 01:04
by knobworld
Joined on Tue, Dec 14 2010, Posts 3

Hi all,

Interesting thread. Like some of you I've used DP (started there in v2. whoa...) and Logic and even PT (but not much) to do midi/orchestra film and TV work. I switched to Logic 7 from DP because I kept having crashes in DP that seemed to have to do with the file size.

I like to write a score as one long document (crazy I know, but its my workflow- i really like to be able to play from cue to cue, or to look at large sections of the score with the current music in place, and to go back and reference the way i dealt with a theme in a previous cue) and with DP5, when the file (sequence) got to be a certain size, things began to go south, sometimes in ways that were unrecoverable. This happened whether or not I was using chunks as a workaround. So that meant having to write individual sequences for each cue, or at least (in the old days) double reels, and then keep a separate session with rough mixes in place to use for watching the whole project. Many times I have been able to address directors' or producers' concerns just by playing a cue and isolating certain elements they are not liking. Of course that doesn't work at the same speed if you can't get under the hood on individual cues.

I did go back to DP7 last year for a couple of projects, because I wanted to see how it handles multi-timbral instruments. IMHO DP is way easier to deal with than Logic in this regard. To me, the "object-oriented" interface in Logic is pretty much a nightmare, or at least requires a LOT more care and feeding than DP. Just try to use the Logic solo function... Some improvements are now in Logic X, but it's still really clumsy. And as observed elsewhere, DP really is optimized for film work in some very important ways, especially dealing with video and clicks, which are invaluable when you're working with live ensembles. Also DP deals with viewing and editing automation much more cleanly that Logic.

Things to love about Logic: being able to mute any object in the arrange page with a key command. DP will let you do this with Midi objects but not audio and that drives me pretty crazy, again because its a part of my workflow. The Logic X plugs and VI's are good. The sampler is robust and will accomodate a lot of sample formats. And, for doing audio recording, the way Logic deals with comping is way the best among DP. PT and Logic. Really bulletproof and fast.

And dittos on thenightwatch: But I see very good reasons to learn a couple of contrasting DAWs. 

I too love the experience of switching back and forth. And spending some time playing around in Reason and Live because of the excellent differences in those UIs and the weird results they will yield.

mac pro 2.4 / OSX 10.8.5 / 16GB / Avid192s / NI Komplete, All Spectrasonics, VEP, UAD 

Posted on Sat, May 10 2014 00:41
by Steve Steele
Joined on Sun, Dec 04 2011, Posts 92

We've had a lot of the same experiences. I started using the black and white DP at version 1.7! Woo! Back in the day of four audio tracks with the audiomedia card and Sound Designer II. Sure was stable though. I had started on Master Tracks Pro on a Mac Classic and need to step up. I took months trying to decide between Performer, Vision, Cubase and Logic. They all were really good. Very even. Vision was really good and had a great interface. I remember being impressed by Cubase. I thought Performer had the most features but was kinda ugly with all GUI icons. But I went with DP. on System 7 on a Mac Quadra 040 Motorola CPU running at 40Mhz! That was fast back then! Good thing as Vision went bye bye. When I got up to DP4 I got involved with a project that took a sickening 4 years! I didn't upgrade anything until that massive project was over. By then MOTU has just come out with DP7. DP8 is by far, their best release after DP4 IMO. I heard I didn't miss much with DP5 and 6.

One cool thing to do is to use BOTH DP and Logic. With Rewire and DP's Interapplication MIDI you can use Logic as a host for DP. I do some stuff that's great to do in Logic and then pipe Logic channels to DP through Aux tracks. Works great!

Let's see... Like you I didn't like using chunks. I liked to work linear and I used DP that way (like PT). Now with VEPro and VRacks I definitely use Chunks.

The object oriented workflow in Logic seemed illogical to me. I could not get started in Logic to save my life.

People new to MOTUNATION ask about wanting to mute individual MIDI notes (which DP can not do, it can mute audio soundbites), and for the life of me, I couldn't figure out why someone would want to do that. Is it a music genre thing? Or is it to hear the effect of a rest on a melody? I just use my ear on the latter one. And right, automation in Logic is weird. I've had to undo so many times. Ha. Two things that DP gets criticized for I REALLY like - separate MIDI and VI tracks (which makes multitimbral tracks a very normal thing, plus I like my VI's separate for Vracks), and having CC line automation in one window compared to DAWs that use multi frames (which take up a lot of space), I like the way DP does that (multi-selecting CC lines, etc..).

I actually like DP's audio comp tracks a lot, but it feels about the same as Logic.

I really enjoy sketching in Logic. I don't do much editing but I can fly through ideas in Logic. DP needs little more organizing time.

Anyway I'm just repeating myself or what you said. I like and use both. I can't wait to update to Logic X. I really like the drummer in Garageband for iOS. And MainStage is awesome. I wish MOTU added "fun" things to DP more than they do. 

I think I'm going to learn Cubase and maybe Reaper next. I'd like to know in a nutshell the important differences between DP and Cubase (besides that Cubase won't win any beauty contests-sorry! That's not important until a GUI gets offensive - like older versions of Windows. Sorry again!). Anyway, good to hear your stories.

Regards,
Steve Steele
https://www.stevesteele.com
Posted on Sat, May 10 2014 23:28
by Errikos
Joined on Tue, Jun 12 2007, Posts 1114

Thanks nightwatch, it is all very useful information. I have always used Logic (except for B.C. dates when I used MasterTracks...), but I am always out looking for software that is efficient, user-friendly, and top quality, so that is why I am asking all these questions. If I feel after everybody's input (and other web information) that DP or Cubase would be better for me, I'll switch. I will keep monitoring this thread for your report on orchestral music on those DAWs. I also use Sibelius and use it first to fully orchestrate; I then dump the MIDI files on Logic.

Speaking about GUI, it is very important to me (crazy I know), and I much prefer the black new Logic look - ditto on the black DP as well.

If you can't notate/MIDI it yourself, it's NOT your music!

In these modern days to be vulgar, illiterate, common and vicious, seems to give a man a marvelous infinity of rights that his honest fathers never dreamed of. - Oscar Wilde
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