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VE Pro latency comp. off when coming from slaves?
Last post Sun, Aug 15 2010 by whinecellarstudio, 29 replies.
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Posted on Thu, Jul 22 2010 22:48
by whinecellarstudio
Joined on Wed, Jun 06 2007, Nashville, TN, USA, Posts 105

Hello,


I'm experimenting with the VE Pro demo to see if it will help my workflow, and I've run into a problem: any offline bounces from external slave instruments aren't latency-compensated and the resulting audio is late.  Here's a specific example:


In Logic (9.1.1) on my Mac Pro (8 core/10.6.3/16 GB RAM), I set up a VE Pro plugin to access a VEP server running on my MacBook Pro slave.  In that server I'm running a single Omnisphere patch that has a tempo-sync'd arpeggiator.  On playback in Logic, it's perfectly in sync - but when I do an offline bounce of that region, the resulting audio file is late; it has a bit of dead space at the beginning (presumably the size of the buffer), so the captured audio is actually late.  Logic's latency comp. prefs are set to "all" and all VE Pro instances are set to 2 buffers.


Any thoughts?  This is on the latest version of VE Pro - just downloaded the demo 2 days ago...

Jim Daneker
Whine Cellar Studio
www.whinecellarstudio.com
Posted on Thu, Jul 22 2010 23:38
by Karel
Joined on Mon, Jan 19 2009, Belgium, Posts 2173

Logic sometimes needs a transport stop/start to apply AU latency changes. Does this help in any way?

Karel Bassez
Software Engineer
Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Fri, Jul 23 2010 02:30
by whinecellarstudio
Joined on Wed, Jun 06 2007, Nashville, TN, USA, Posts 105
Karel wrote:

Logic sometimes needs a transport stop/start to apply AU latency changes. Does this help in any way?

No, it didn't help when bouncing externally-hosted instances - I tried it several times with the same result.  I did try it with sources on the same Mac, and those would eventually line up after a few stops & starts (I even flipped the phase on the resulting file to see if it would null).

It does feel a bit unsettling to wonder if things are being properly compensated... after all, my main interest in VE Pro is in being able to bounce my slave tracks offline.   If that doesn't work reliably, I'm back to square one unfortunately.

Hope it gets sorted... thanks!

Jim Daneker
Whine Cellar Studio
www.whinecellarstudio.com
Posted on Fri, Jul 23 2010 16:56
by Karel
Joined on Mon, Jan 19 2009, Belgium, Posts 2173

That's strange. For the time being you could first set the VE Pro Server Interface plugins to 0 buffers of latency before bouncing. But this really shouldn't be happening.

Karel Bassez
Software Engineer
Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Fri, Jul 23 2010 18:44
by whinecellarstudio
Joined on Wed, Jun 06 2007, Nashville, TN, USA, Posts 105

Thanks Karel.  Yes, in further experiments today, I've found that if I switch to 0 buffers before bouncing, everything's fine for both internal and external instances.  If I leave it at 1 or 2 buffers, the resulting audio has that many samples of dead space before the actual audio starts.

Definitely something for the fix list.  It's an easy workaround, but obviously would get to be tedious every time you want to bounce a track!

Jim Daneker
Whine Cellar Studio
www.whinecellarstudio.com
Posted on Fri, Jul 23 2010 19:02
by Karel
Joined on Mon, Jan 19 2009, Belgium, Posts 2173

The latency compensation does work for you when not bouncing?

Karel Bassez
Software Engineer
Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Fri, Jul 23 2010 19:10
by whinecellarstudio
Joined on Wed, Jun 06 2007, Nashville, TN, USA, Posts 105
Karel wrote:

The latency compensation does work for you when not bouncing?

Yes, it works in realtime playback, although it does seem to shift around every so often (depending on track selection).  It's just offline bouncing that seems to be the problem.

Thanks for looking into it!

Jim Daneker
Whine Cellar Studio
www.whinecellarstudio.com
Posted on Sun, Aug 01 2010 22:48
by brett
Joined on Fri, Aug 19 2005, Australia, Posts 88

While certainly not identical, this problem seems reminiscent of the problem Cubase 4.x and 5.x users are having on the PC with bouncing/exporting audio.  Everything is fine on realtime playback but a large delay on rendering/bouncing the audio.  Ours was looking like a Kontakt 4.1 issue related to the latest VEP build, but not so here.  When I rolled back to the previous build (5436) everything was fine.  Perhaps you could try that?

Brett

Posted on Mon, Aug 02 2010 10:48
by yt020490_13791
Joined on Wed, Apr 20 2005, Posts 40

I just built a test project to test if this occurs on my system. My answer was - no - latency compensation works fine here using OSX 10.6.4, Logic 9.1.1, VEP 4.0.6150. Everything was running at 48kHz as it always is here.

I wasn't however using Omnisphere or tempo sync. My test was simply to create 2 instances of Kontakt 4.1.1 and to load a short clicky drum sample. One of these instances was hosted locally, directly into the master Logic project, the other instance was loaded via VEP into the 64bit server on a slave Mac Pro.

I found that the clicky drum sample was properly synchronised between the local and remote (VEP) instances of Kontakt 4.1.1 during playback and for both online & offline bouncing. 

I guess your problem is either specific to your system, or to Omnisphere.

I can send you my Logic project file & metaframe if you would like to test it.

Posted on Mon, Aug 02 2010 10:50
by yt020490_13791
Joined on Wed, Apr 20 2005, Posts 40

Out of interest, are you running Logic in 32 or 64bits? (32bit here as firewire video doesn't yet work in 64bit)

Posted on Mon, Aug 02 2010 15:45
by whinecellarstudio
Joined on Wed, Jun 06 2007, Nashville, TN, USA, Posts 105

Thanks for the info - much appreciated.  The only apparent variables in our systems are that I'm still on OSX 10.6.3, and you're on 10.6.4.  Other than that, our systems & software versions appear identical.

FYI, I've tried this with instruments other than Omnisphere; I've also tried Kontakt, PLAY, Vienna Instruments, etc.  It happens in both 64-bit and 32-bit mode in Logic as well as 32-bit & 64-bit VE Pro servers, and also locally-hosted vs. slave-hosted VE Pro servers.  Same result no matter the combination.

Can you tell me your Logic pref settings?  I've got latency comp. set to "all" but that didn't seem to affect results either...

Thanks again - I'll keep digging further!

Jim Daneker
Whine Cellar Studio
www.whinecellarstudio.com
Posted on Mon, Aug 02 2010 16:50
by jeremyroberts
Joined on Thu, Apr 17 2003, New York, NY USA, Posts 282

Protools users have no choice but to bounce in realtime.

What you hear is what it is.

Why not just bus it, and record it?

Posted on Mon, Aug 02 2010 17:03
by whinecellarstudio
Joined on Wed, Jun 06 2007, Nashville, TN, USA, Posts 105
jeremyroberts wrote:
Protools users have no choice but to bounce in realtime. What you hear is what it is. Why not just bus it, and record it?

Hey Jeremy,

I totally get what you're saying, but:

1. This issue is regardless of offline vs. realtime bouncing, so either way something's wrong (assuming it's not something specific to my setup, which I'm trying to rule out).

2. For archiving purposes, I render all MIDI regions as audio because change is inevitable, and recalling a project even 6 months down the road can be a nightmare if my setup has changed at all.  Even without that factor, realtime bouncing just gets to be incredibly tedious on larger projects, especially when everything starts as MIDI.

3. Even after realtime bounces, I still listen back to stems to double-check everything before delivery.  If I'm listening back either way, it would save years of my life to bounce offline first.  The feature is there in Logic, VE Pro supports it, so I'd like to use it ;-)

Jim Daneker
Whine Cellar Studio
www.whinecellarstudio.com
Posted on Mon, Aug 02 2010 17:13
by jeremyroberts
Joined on Thu, Apr 17 2003, New York, NY USA, Posts 282
whinecellarstudio wrote:

The feature is there in Logic, VE Pro supports it, so I'd like to use it ;-)

And that's all that really matters! I would feel the same way.

If PLAYBACK is good, but BOUNCE is not, then something is definitely wrong.

Posted on Mon, Aug 02 2010 18:32
by whinecellarstudio
Joined on Wed, Jun 06 2007, Nashville, TN, USA, Posts 105
jeremyroberts wrote:
If PLAYBACK is good, but BOUNCE is not, then something is definitely wrong.

Yep, just need to figure out where the problem lies, as it doesn't seem to happen for everyone.  I'll report back with any news...

Jim Daneker
Whine Cellar Studio
www.whinecellarstudio.com
Posted on Mon, Aug 02 2010 18:51
by Karel
Joined on Mon, Jan 19 2009, Belgium, Posts 2173

Indeed rather strange this issue. Especially since you're the first to report it. It would be interesting to know which setting could affect this. Could you perhaps send a realtime and offline render of the same piece to ? Also I'd like to know your audio interface buffer size and the latency the VE Pro plugin is set to. Hopefully with that information I can become a little wiser. Thanks.

Karel Bassez
Software Engineer
Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Mon, Aug 02 2010 18:59
by Nick Harvey
Joined on Tue, Apr 15 2003, Posts 118

Jim.

I've been having the same problem as you since I first starting using VE-Pro last year. 

I brought it to VSL's attention and Maya from VSL tried to replicate the problem back in November, but although a few emails bounced back and forth nothing was resolved unfortunately.

I'm using the latest VE-Pro update with Logic 9.1.1, OS 10.6.4, a Master MacPro and two slave MacBook Pros. The latency issue occurs both when using the servers on the slaves as well as solely on the MacPro.

Nick

Posted on Mon, Aug 02 2010 19:12
by whinecellarstudio
Joined on Wed, Jun 06 2007, Nashville, TN, USA, Posts 105

Thanks Nick.  Good to know it's not just me!  Karel, I will send you some samples ASAP.  In the meantime, my Logic buffer is always set to 128, and as I reported previously, the problem only occurs when the VE Pro plugin buffer is set to 1 or 2.  When set to "none" everything is fine.

More info to follow...

Jim Daneker
Whine Cellar Studio
www.whinecellarstudio.com
Posted on Mon, Aug 02 2010 19:52
by Karel
Joined on Mon, Jan 19 2009, Belgium, Posts 2173

Sounds like Logic simply doesn't do any latency compensation whatsoever when rendering. Logic is rather bad at handling dynamic latency changes, but still seems very strange that it only happens with some users while others are unaffected.

Karel Bassez
Software Engineer
Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Mon, Aug 02 2010 20:21
by whinecellarstudio
Joined on Wed, Jun 06 2007, Nashville, TN, USA, Posts 105
Karel wrote:
Sounds like Logic simply doesn't do any latency compensation whatsoever when rendering.

I'm not so sure it's on the Logic side though, as I don't have this issue with any other plugin or instrument - just VE Pro.  And again, the issue only occurs when the VE Pro plugin is set to 1 or 2 buffers, so that makes me wonder if VE Pro is properly reporting its latency?

I'm certainly not ruling out Logic as the culprit, just that the issue only occurs with VE Pro...

Jim Daneker
Whine Cellar Studio
www.whinecellarstudio.com
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