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Controlling VEP faders with Logic Pro
Last post Sun, Jan 02 2011 by VSL, 18 replies.
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Posted on Wed, Oct 13 2010 14:36
by Talino
Joined on Sat, Jul 17 2010, Posts 260

Hi all,

This must have been asked before but I didn't have any luck with the forum's search form... Are the VEP faders designed to received MIDI volume messages? And if so, how can I use them from within Logic (which, as you know, messes up the instrument plugin track fader itself if the latter receives MIDI volume data)?

Thanks.

MASTER: Cubase Pro 10.0.20, iMac 27 2015 i7 4.0 (17,1) 24gb RAM, OS X 10.14.4, RME Fireface UC. SLAVE: Mac Pro 2009 Quad 2.66 (4,1), 28gb RAM, OS X 10.11.6, Vienna Ensemble Pro 7, samples on OWC Accelsior SSD.
Posted on Wed, Oct 13 2010 16:49
by FredB
Joined on Sat, Apr 01 2006, Montreal, Posts 669

VEP faders are control with automation data, not midi volume message. you can acces it in track automation mode in Logic (default shortcut -A) in the Vienna ensemble drop down menu. You have to choose the channel you want to control but it's not midi channel, it's the VEP mixer track order, if you change this order, it will control another track. Plus if you wan't to bounce in place or bounce offline, you should set to none the Latency buffer on VEP plugin GUI to avoid glitches when there's automations data. I think thats a problem with Logic. 

Fred

Master: Imac I7 32Gb Late 2013 - - OsX 10.13.6
Slave: Corei7 6800k 64gb - Win 10
Soft: Logic X 10.4.4 - ProTools 12.x - VE Pro 6 - VI Pro 2 - MIR
Posted on Wed, Oct 13 2010 21:41
by Karel
Joined on Mon, Jan 19 2009, Belgium, Posts 2173

Indeed a problem with Logic. Even though sample accurate automation is turned off in its preferences, it will override this setting when bouncing, resulting in improper operation of the networking unless using 0 latency.

Karel Bassez
Software Engineer
Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Thu, Oct 14 2010 06:36
by Talino
Joined on Sat, Jul 17 2010, Posts 260

I'm not sure I follow... I've opened up the Logic automation view and drew a couple of volume curves, each one set to a different "channel" (whatever that may mean, I've never used automation in this way in Logic). Are the faders in VEP supposed to move correspondingly? Because they don't on my end...

Thanks for your help.

MASTER: Cubase Pro 10.0.20, iMac 27 2015 i7 4.0 (17,1) 24gb RAM, OS X 10.14.4, RME Fireface UC. SLAVE: Mac Pro 2009 Quad 2.66 (4,1), 28gb RAM, OS X 10.11.6, Vienna Ensemble Pro 7, samples on OWC Accelsior SSD.
Posted on Thu, Oct 14 2010 15:06
by Ashermusic
Joined on Fri, Jan 02 2009, Posts 558
No, because even though it is controlling sound sources that originate from VE Pro, the actual automating is of Logic Channel Strips.
Composer, Logic Pro Certified Trainer, author of "Jumpstart Logic Pro 10.6 " & "Scoring WIth Logic Pro"
www.jayasher.com

3.2 6-Core i7 Mac mini, 64 GB RAM. macOS 12.1
Posted on Thu, Oct 14 2010 16:52
by FredB
Joined on Sat, Apr 01 2006, Montreal, Posts 669

The problem is that you're not controlling Vep Fader but the track fader. 

To control VEP faders check in the dropdown menu on the track header in automation view, where it says Volume, you'll see 1 Vienn Ensem. You can choose the parameters and the channels you wish to automate (ch1pan, ch1snd1, ch1vol...). You can choose a different one on each instruments track even on the same instrument with differents channels. Is that clear?

Fred

Master: Imac I7 32Gb Late 2013 - - OsX 10.13.6
Slave: Corei7 6800k 64gb - Win 10
Soft: Logic X 10.4.4 - ProTools 12.x - VE Pro 6 - VI Pro 2 - MIR
Posted on Thu, Oct 14 2010 17:08
by Talino
Joined on Sat, Jul 17 2010, Posts 260
FredB wrote:
Is that clear?

Crystal. Thank you. I now understand why it didn't work for me before. I'm actually using an audio object with VEP on it, to which I connect a multi-instrument in the environment. In the Arrange window I work with the multi-instrument, which is why I couldn't see any of the VEP parameters in the automation lane. The reason I use this setup is that I had too many bugs/crashes and mishaps when adding and deleting tracks in the arrange window (even with "automatic handling" turned off), that I decided to separate the MIDI and audio objects completely. Now I'm having second thoughts... I'll see what I can come up with that would be the easiest setup to deal with. But in any case, thanks a lot for your explanation which has been very helpful to me.

MASTER: Cubase Pro 10.0.20, iMac 27 2015 i7 4.0 (17,1) 24gb RAM, OS X 10.14.4, RME Fireface UC. SLAVE: Mac Pro 2009 Quad 2.66 (4,1), 28gb RAM, OS X 10.11.6, Vienna Ensemble Pro 7, samples on OWC Accelsior SSD.
Posted on Thu, Oct 14 2010 17:26
by FredB
Joined on Sat, Apr 01 2006, Montreal, Posts 669

You can put a tranformer object between the midi instrument and VEP. I have worked with that and it work great. If you want the correct data for the tranformer let me know. VEP Fader volume is Fader data #6,12,18...on channel 2. And you have to use single midi instruments. I have a Logic template if you want to get a look.

Fred

Master: Imac I7 32Gb Late 2013 - - OsX 10.13.6
Slave: Corei7 6800k 64gb - Win 10
Soft: Logic X 10.4.4 - ProTools 12.x - VE Pro 6 - VI Pro 2 - MIR
Posted on Thu, Oct 14 2010 18:45
by Talino
Joined on Sat, Jul 17 2010, Posts 260

Sure, some info on the VEP fader values would be nice — I was trying to figure them out myself but I don't see how to get MIDI data out of VEP and into a Logic monitor. I could set up the transformers myself (at least I could try, and come back here if I can't figure it out...)

As a side note, I've been working for so long in the above fashion (multi-instrument into a VEP instrument track, and using a customized Environment window instead of the Mixer window) that I can't understand how other setups work... If I assign an arrange track directly to a VEP instrument object (in order to test out your instructions above), then when I do "New track with next MIDI channel" I get another audio object in the Environment, using the same INST channel — what could possibly be the use of that (since their volume faders are linked)?

Thanks again.

EDIT : FredB, thanks to your help I've come up with the following transformer settings:

Apply and let non-matching pass thru

Status=Control

Channel All

Byte 1=7

Byte 2 All

Status Fix Fader

Channel Fix 2

Byte 1 Use Map

Byte 2 Thru

Connect Byte 1 (Use Map) to get its data from the Channel field. The map simply maps 0 to 6, 1 to 12 ... 15 to 96.

This seems to work fine (and don't require single midi instrument objects, multi-instruments seems to work fine). Just insert a single transformer between the multi-instrument and the VEP audio object.

I need to use "Use Map" because channels are numbered 0-15 internally (instead of 1-16) and I can't find a way to simply tell Logic to do N=(CH+1)*6. But setting a map for 16 values isn't such a big deal.

This is *extremely* helpful for VSL instruments — you have a single MIDI track for both notes AND volume automation (AND expression, articulations etc). It's less than ideal for Kontakt-based libraries such as LASS — because the above method should control the VEP input channels (presuming you're using a multi-output version of Kontakt).

Anyway, it's nice to see that Logic's Environment is still an extremely capable beast after 15 years... Kudos to the talented visionaries at emagic. 

Thanks again.

MASTER: Cubase Pro 10.0.20, iMac 27 2015 i7 4.0 (17,1) 24gb RAM, OS X 10.14.4, RME Fireface UC. SLAVE: Mac Pro 2009 Quad 2.66 (4,1), 28gb RAM, OS X 10.11.6, Vienna Ensemble Pro 7, samples on OWC Accelsior SSD.
Posted on Fri, Oct 15 2010 23:33
by chris_3594
Joined on Thu, Oct 09 2003, Atlanta, GA USA, Posts 42

So I am curious, I am using DP 7.2 and/or Cubase 5.5, and I have no problems controlling volume on Vienna Instruments loaded into VE Pro. HOWEVER, I cannot control volume on a PLAY instance inside VE Pro (like StormDrum2 instance). I change the automation, volume controller, everything I can think of and nothing changes. Just loud loud loud. Is there no way to change these parameters in PLAY via VE PRO? If so, that SERIOUSLY limits the value of even being able to load other VSTi's inside of VEP...

Christopher Kennedy Alpiar
Producer, Recordist, Owner, Saxophonist
SUN SHIP STUDIOS, Atlanta USA
www.alpiar.com
Posted on Fri, Oct 15 2010 23:56
by Karel
Joined on Mon, Jan 19 2009, Belgium, Posts 2173

Currently VE Pro doesn't support automation of hosted plugin parameters yet. Most instruments offer the ability to control parameters by MIDI CC however.

Karel Bassez
Software Engineer
Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Sat, Oct 16 2010 00:36
by chris_3594
Joined on Thu, Oct 09 2003, Atlanta, GA USA, Posts 42

OK thats fine, but in DP I am drawing CC 7 for volume automation and neither PLAY_64 or Kontakt 3.5 is seeing this data, only volume control I am having luck with in VEPro is with Vienna Instruments. Is it something with the last update maybe? I just patched a few days back as you may remember ;-)

Christopher Kennedy Alpiar
Producer, Recordist, Owner, Saxophonist
SUN SHIP STUDIOS, Atlanta USA
www.alpiar.com
Posted on Sat, Oct 16 2010 01:23
by Karel
Joined on Mon, Jan 19 2009, Belgium, Posts 2173

There have been no changes to MIDI for ages. VE Pro just passes MIDI on as usual without filtering.

Karel Bassez
Software Engineer
Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Thu, Oct 21 2010 18:37
by chris_3594
Joined on Thu, Oct 09 2003, Atlanta, GA USA, Posts 42

Are you certain nothing has changed? Or is there something special I need to set up for other instruments to get this data? You say nothing has changed in a long while, but being able to use 3rd party VSTi's is a recent thing for VE. I dont know how or why, but I draw in CC7 in DP, DP shows the changes, and it works absolutely fine for all VSL instruments in VE Pro and fine for gigastudio or standalone PLAY or Kontakt instances. But volume changes with CC 7 are not doing anything to the Kontakt or PLAY instruments loaded inside of VE Pro.

Christopher Kennedy Alpiar
Producer, Recordist, Owner, Saxophonist
SUN SHIP STUDIOS, Atlanta USA
www.alpiar.com
Posted on Thu, Oct 21 2010 18:42
by Karel
Joined on Mon, Jan 19 2009, Belgium, Posts 2173

This most likely means that your master host is "eating" CC 7 before it can be sent to the VE Pro Server.

Karel Bassez
Software Engineer
Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Thu, Oct 21 2010 19:48
by chris_3594
Joined on Thu, Oct 09 2003, Atlanta, GA USA, Posts 42

Hmmm but it is sending it to instances of PLAY or K3.5 when _not_ loaded in VE Pro, and all the Vienna Instruments are getting that data fine. Any idea where I should look next?

Thanks!

Christopher Kennedy Alpiar
Producer, Recordist, Owner, Saxophonist
SUN SHIP STUDIOS, Atlanta USA
www.alpiar.com
Posted on Thu, Oct 21 2010 20:13
by chris_3594
Joined on Thu, Oct 09 2003, Atlanta, GA USA, Posts 42

Am I missing something? I have always set up tracks with VSTi's the same way, but maybe its changed? Or maybe I am doing something wrong with the instance inside and instance thing?

In DP 7.2x I do this:

1. create a VE Pro instrument track in DP

2. create a MIDI track in DP

3. Open up VE Pro Server either locally or on a farm machine

4. Create a new VEP instance and add a new VSTi channel, selecting play_VST_64 (or Kontakt, or VI of course but VI works no problem)

5. Open the PLAY instrument I want in the PLAY instance in the VEP instance

5a. assign a VE Pro MIDI OUT channel (lets say channel 1) and leaving the MIDI OUT of the PLAY instance inside as OMNI

5b. leave MIDI IN as OMNI in both VE Pro and PLAY

5c. assign an audio out channel (NET 3/ NET 4 in this case)

6. Connect to the instance from the DP VE Pro instrument track, choosing the server and instance name

7. Create a VE Pro output bus to pickup NET 3 / NET 4 and send it to my main outs; add in altiverb aux send and return, etc, etc

8. change the MIDI channel on the MIDI track in DP accordingly and record on the MIDI track in DP

9. Draw in CC#7 and enable automation on that track in DP

10. stab myself with a fork or something more blunt when it records all the midi data and CC info in DP, triggers the sounds of the PLAY inside VE Pro, but ignores the volume

Im hoping that I am just doing something wrong here in my setup, am I?

Thanks!

Christopher Kennedy Alpiar
Producer, Recordist, Owner, Saxophonist
SUN SHIP STUDIOS, Atlanta USA
www.alpiar.com
Posted on Sun, Jan 02 2011 08:38
by VSL
Joined on Tue, Dec 02 2014, Posts
0


Hello Fred,

while having the same interest and problem as talino i tried to follow your tip. but after selecting the Ch1vol of VEns. for example, when i try to write automation via controller fader, logic immediately switches back to "Automation of Volume of the Channelstrip", hope that this is clear, what i mean. but: what am i doing wrong?

thanks for your help, harald
FredB wrote:

The problem is that you're not controlling Vep Fader but the track fader. 

To control VEP faders check in the dropdown menu on the track header in automation view, where it says Volume, you'll see 1 Vienn Ensem. You can choose the parameters and the channels you wish to automate (ch1pan, ch1snd1, ch1vol...). You can choose a different one on each instruments track even on the same instrument with differents channels. Is that clear?

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