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Sibelius and MIR
Last post Mon, Nov 01 2010 by Simsy, 13 replies.
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Posted on Fri, Oct 29 2010 12:24
by Simsy
Joined on Mon, May 21 2007, Posts 385

Hi

I am a longtime Finale user but have just purchased Sibelius and am going to make the switch. What I want to know is, can I use the Sibelius VE files you have supplied to use MIR. What I was thinking was

1) Load MIR using the default presets for each instrument, like you do to load Vienna Ensemble in the example video

2) Load the Sibelius VE sound set supplied by VSL, but instead can you chose to use a MOL port?

Then Sibelius would send the midi to MIR. Can I do this? If so, how?

Thanks!

Posted on Fri, Oct 29 2010 12:48
by andi
Joined on Wed, Feb 18 2004, Vienna, Posts 3523

Hello Simsy!

Thanks for your interest.
Yes it's possible to use Sibelius and MIR exactly the way you described it. Please make sure to load the VI Presets in MIR, that come with the Sibelius Sound Sets.

Best regards,
Andi

Andreas Olszewski
Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Fri, Oct 29 2010 13:08
by Simsy
Joined on Mon, May 21 2007, Posts 385

Ok,

Sorry, but I need a basic step by step way of doing this. Is this correct :

1) Download all the sibelius soundsets and files from VSL.

2) Copy over the presets for the instruments onto my MIR machine and set up the template. I have WW on MOLPort1, Brass MOLPort2 etc.

3) Load in the sibelius the VSL soundsets

4) Instead of choosing VE in the active instrument list, I can choose a MOL port? Will soundsets still appear in the soundset list?

Is that correct?

Posted on Fri, Oct 29 2010 13:39
by andi
Joined on Wed, Feb 18 2004, Vienna, Posts 3523

That's perfectly correct. The sound sets will also appear for other devices like MOL ports, but have to be copied to the right folder first:

Windows XP:

Documents and Settings\your username\Application Data\Sibelius Software\Sibelius 6\Sounds

Windows Vista and Windows 7:

Users\your username\AppData\Roaming\Sibelius Software\Sibelius 6\Sounds

Mac OS X:

Users/your username/Library/Application Support/Sibelius Software/Sibelius 6/Sounds

Andreas Olszewski
Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Fri, Oct 29 2010 13:45
by Simsy
Joined on Mon, May 21 2007, Posts 385

Ok, that's great!! Sorry about all the questions but I have been a finale user for years and I am trying to move to Sibelius. One final question, if I create a score in Sibelius, how realistic will it sound? Does it control expression and velocity parameters? Or to get it really realistic do you really need to export the midi to Logic and draw all the curves in?

I would really love to get away from using Logic and just write the music in notation. Is this possible? Do you have any audio of music you created using sibelius only with the symphonic cube that you can send me?

Also, the sibelius presets do you have to have all the extended versions? I have extended versions for some packs.

Again, thanks for the help!

Posted on Fri, Oct 29 2010 14:34
by andi
Joined on Wed, Feb 18 2004, Vienna, Posts 3523

Like in Logic or other DAWs, the realism of sound will depend on your will to finetune the outcome. Some finetuning steps would be easier to realize with DAWs than with notation software, but you can also get great results with Sibelius.

It's easy to control dynamics with Sibelius. You can also use Velocity Xfade, as Sibelius sends velocity and CC11 values for dynamics. For more hints I recommend reading the "Optimizng Sibelius Playback" manual. You can download it at the following location:
http://vsl.co.at/en/68/141/460/576/655.htm

All Sibelius sound sets work with the standard and with the extended versions.

All music you hear in the new "Sibelius & Vienna Ensemble" tutorial video is completely made with Sibelius and VSL software.
http://vsl.co.at/en/211/1343/1348/1594/1245.vsl

The excerpt of the piece you hear at the beginning of the video, is from my composition "Full Circle" which can be heard in full at the following location:
http://vsl.co.at/Player2.aspx?Lang=1&DemoID=5774 (... just as a sidenote: This is "contemporary music" and may not be everybody's cup of tea. Wink  )

Best,
Andi

Andreas Olszewski
Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Fri, Oct 29 2010 20:22
by Simsy
Joined on Mon, May 21 2007, Posts 385
andi wrote:

Like in Logic or other DAWs, the realism of sound will depend on your will to finetune the outcome. Some finetuning steps would be easier to realize with DAWs than with notation software, but you can also get great results with Sibelius.

It's easy to control dynamics with Sibelius. You can also use Velocity Xfade, as Sibelius sends velocity and CC11 values for dynamics. For more hints I recommend reading the "Optimizng Sibelius Playback" manual. You can download it at the following location:
http://vsl.co.at/en/68/141/460/576/655.htm

All Sibelius sound sets work with the standard and with the extended versions.

All music you hear in the new "Sibelius & Vienna Ensemble" tutorial video is completely made with Sibelius and VSL software.
http://vsl.co.at/en/211/1343/1348/1594/1245.vsl

The excerpt of the piece you hear at the beginning of the video, is from my composition "Full Circle" which can be heard in full at the following location:
http://vsl.co.at/Player2.aspx?Lang=1&DemoID=5774 (... just as a sidenote: This is "contemporary music" and may not be everybody's cup of tea. Wink  )

Best,
Andi

Hi 

Really like your 'Full Circle'. Was that piece created in Sibelius? Or did you use a DAW?

When you said 

"It's easy to control dynamics with Sibelius. You can also use Velocity Xfade, as Sibelius sends velocity and CC11 values for dynamics."

Does Sibelius send x-fade automatically, what CC does it send it on? Or does it just send velocity on amounts?

Sorry about all the questions!Embarrassed

Posted on Sat, Oct 30 2010 08:22
by andi
Joined on Wed, Feb 18 2004, Vienna, Posts 3523

Thanks Simsy!

"Full Circle" was made completely with Sibelius and VSL software and without any DAW. Sibelius sends CC11 AND velocity values for dynamics. You can route CC11 to Vel XFade. For more details please refer to the "Optimizing Sibelius Playback" manual page 15.

Best,
Andi

Andreas Olszewski
Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Mon, Nov 01 2010 09:44
by Simsy
Joined on Mon, May 21 2007, Posts 385

Hi Andi,

Thanks for all your help.

I was also thinking I could turn velocity x-fade on and off say on CC 6 in sibelius by using ~6,0 and ~6,127 text and then use the Add Continuous Data plugin to automate more legato passages and timpani rolls and let sibelius take care of cc11. What do you think?

Also, as there is a latency using MIR (I am using sibelius to send MOL to Mir on a different machine and then recording the audio back into the Sibelius machine using Pro-Tools), is there anyway of getting sibelius to send midi early?

Thanks!

Posted on Mon, Nov 01 2010 13:05
by Pekay
Joined on Sun, Apr 26 2009, Stockholm, Posts 81

Hello Simsy!

It's interesting that you want to use Sibelius without a DAW. That's what I've been doing for a long time. For me it is natural to make music by writing scores in Sibelius. It's a disturbing extra moment to jump to a DAW.

My experience is that you can get real nice results in Sibelius after some exeperimenting. Mixing works perfectly with Sibelius and Vienna Ensemble, as I see it. But it's difficult to fine-tune articulations and dynamics in Sibelius only. So, for really superb performance you probably need to use a DAW, which gives you better automation facilities.

Best, Pekay

Posted on Mon, Nov 01 2010 14:14
by Simsy
Joined on Mon, May 21 2007, Posts 385

Hi

Thanks for the reply. I really want to get back to just writing the music in notation, I think my orchestration would really benefit.

How do you deal with velocity x-fade? Do you not use it at all in sibelius?

Letting Sibelius send velocity on and cc11 events should work well for short articulations? But for longer notes and percussion like timpani rolls, you really need to control velocity x-fade. For example, how do you do timpani rolls in your sibelius scores using VSL?

I was thinking of setting velocity x-fade on and off to cc6, then using the ~CC6,0,~CC6,127 text to turn it on and off. Then have the velocity x-fade liked to say CC1 and using the add continuous data plugin to send cc1 data. Do you think this would work?

Also, do you have velocity x-fade set to cc11 like the manual says? If I have both expression and velocity x-fade set to cc11 and draw different curves in the perform section of the VSL player would this give a good real performance?

Sorry about all the questions, but I am trying to find out what techniques people use that use sibelius.

Thanks

Posted on Mon, Nov 01 2010 17:55
by DaveTubaKing
Joined on Fri, Feb 27 2004, London, Posts 770

For
velocity x-fade, in Sibelius, I use the plugin "Playback" - "Add
Continuous Control Changes". It's a bit fiddly but you get into a
routine with it. You can choose whatever CC number you want as long as
you don't choose one already in use and set the same controller number
in the individual VI. I usually use CC19. I leave velocity x-fade on all
the time and use CC19 throughout the score instead of dynamics. I
always have two scores the clean live score and a VSL performanc e score
which is littered with CC data and adjustments to the notation for best sounding performance. 

Your suggestion for switching velocity x-fade on and off would work.

You can then use that plugin for all and every function in the VI which responds to CC data.


That works for any instrument with multiple dynamic layers. Obviously it
works better for those with more layers. 4 layers or more is good. 3 or
2 and you start to hear the layers coming in and out. But that's a problem with having less layers not a problem with the process.

David Carter https://sorabjiorchestralmusic.wordpress.com/
https://www.youtube.com/...UCoEithAEjsd4IBViwsfQFwQ

W10 Pro (64bit), Z390 Aorus Pro wifi MB, Intel i7-8700K s.7 GHz, Corsair 64GB (4x16GB) DDR4 3000MHz, Samsung 970 EVO M.2, 2 x OCZ Agility 3 480GB SSDs, Sibelius 8.4.1, Symphonic cube, VEPro7, MIRPro, Focustite Scarlett Solo, Nvidia GeForce GT 710 2GB GDDR5
Posted on Mon, Nov 01 2010 21:36
by Simsy
Joined on Mon, May 21 2007, Posts 385

Thanks Dave for all your help. I will give that a go and see how good I can get it. 

If I can't get it expressive enough. I might set up two identical templates in MIR, one for sibelius just with cc11 and velocity on and then export the midi into Logic and have a template that has velocity x-fade turned on and off for long notes and then draw the velocity x-fade. 

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