Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Forum Jump  
Options
Go to last post
Posted on Sun, Nov 07 2010 04:38
by Composer_Larkin
Joined on Tue, Jul 28 2009, Posts 18
Hi all,

Just interested to hear how vsl users get a nice ensemble sound out of the string section. I'm still trying to figure out the best way to have them set up ready to go in my orchestral template.


One issue (probably the most important one) is how to set up violin 1 and 2. In my last project, I had them panned differently (so that no signal overlaps pre- reverb) and then gave some extra high to the vln 1s, and EQ'ed off some high from the vln 2s. This resulted in a horrible sound. The 1st violins were piercing my ears, so I found myself giving the melody to the 2nd violins most of the time.


Towards the end of my last project, the violins take over the theme, and as mentioned, the 1st violins were piercing again [this theme had lots of dynamic shape with the velocity x fader], I found adding a compressor to them fixed it right up, and created a good balance between them and the sustained low notes in the basses and celli.


Does anyone use compression pre-mixing stage? For a big epic sound, is it a good idea to try putting light compression over the violins and low strings? or the whole section? I know these are the sort of things done in the mixing stange, but these questions are about a way to have the strings set up ready to go in a way that doesn't frustrate the composer during orchestration etc.


I use Symphobia strings along with VSL, but often I need more detail and different articulations in the string parts, so I often turn to VSL. I've been thinking of getting LASS which has everything out of the box, but I don't think I can justify the $$ - also no time to learn a new library as the next project is due very soon!


Any help or ideas anyone has would be greatly appreciated!

-Chris
www.composerlarkin.com
christopherlarkin.bandcamp.com
Posted on Sun, Nov 07 2010 18:55
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 8054

Hi Chris,

I moved your message to the Mixing-forum for better visibility.

Kind regards,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Sat, Nov 27 2010 14:39
by suon
Joined on Sat, Sep 04 2010, Posts 106

Actually I am also very interested in people's solutions to this.  Please help!  Especially for many of us who are not migrating to MIR quite yet...

Here's the technique I have so far.  I think it can be improved a lot more, though... 

- a slightly narrower stereo separation for strings at the center of the stage. For me, that's Violin II and Violas.  "stereo separation" in this case means tweaking a stereo imager or a power-pan, either way.  This helps make the inner instruments sound just slightly smaller and slightly behind.

- Using one manually created early reflection for each section, panned to the extreme left or right, whichever is the opposite side of where the instrument is originally panned.  for example, I have violin I panned to the left, taking approximately 1/3 of the stereo field, and this manual early reflection is panned extreme right.  This is implemented by sending to an additional channel that has some delay. (and make sure you are sending both stereo left and right channels without loosing information when panning it)  for instruments closer to the center of the stage, I use a quicker reflection, and for the instruments on the sides, I use a slightly longer reflection.  The actual milliseconds depend on the type of reverb being used - if its intended to be a large hall, the delays should be slightly longer (~50 ms for inner and ~70 ms for outer instruments)  for a smaller hall or a tighter sound, the delays should be quicker (~25 ms for inner and ~35 ms for outer instruments).  Then, I also muffle high frequences a little with EQ or filter, only for these extra reflections.   Finally, the reflections are significantly reduced dB compared to the original instrument.

- because of this additional early reflection, its easier to pan instruments wider, to get a better stereo effect without making the strings sound too thin.

- it might seem that adding the early reflection would make it sound less stereo.  At first I expected to abandon this experiment... but to my surprise, it did not ruin the stereo effect at all.  I think its the psychoacoustics of early reflections - the correct combination of delay, panning, volume reduction, and muffling high frequencies.  Instead it makes each instrument sound solid enough to play solo without sounding thin.

If anyone is interested, they can search my earlier posts and see a link to the song "galactic swashbuckler" where I'm using this technique (in the strings only).  I think the strings still do sound a little thin, but it was still a noticeable improvement.

~Shawn

Posted on Sat, Nov 27 2010 18:17
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1772

Hello

How to achieve the mix of strings?

One solution you will find here:

http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/suite-presets/index.php

Study the pdf, the pictures and all other information.

The two mixer solutions within the sidebare could be intersting as well.

Click on them. If your screen doesn't offer enough pixels you can download them and watch them afterwards on your Computer with the full view.

It is not necessary to use SUITE Effects. You also can use your own and similar ones.

So in the end you use a Panner/Monoizer  and an EQ (in minimum for cutting the low frequencies) for each track and a room-effect in the sum.

One important thing:

For adusting the position of the instrument sections within your virtual room: You need to use monitors.

Make sure that you are sitting in the correct position (triangle 60° 60° 60° / speaker you speaker) for this procedure.

Hope this information helps for going on...

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Sun, Nov 28 2010 04:24
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2730

did you try to revert the phase of violin 2 ?

MacBook Pro 2019 16" + 2 x Odisseey G9 49"

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd

Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series, Many Synchronised libs
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 2, Art Conductor, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Wed, Dec 01 2010 06:25
by suon
Joined on Sat, Sep 04 2010, Posts 106

Hi Cyril,

 

Do you mean "invert" the phase?  Are you asking about it, or suggesting that we should try it?  If you are suggesting, can you please give more details?

 

Cheers,

~Shawn

Posted on Wed, Dec 01 2010 07:27
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2730

HI Swan

I am not in front of Logic. There is a plug-in (in the helper section ????) that revert/invert the phase of the track.

This is useful when you have 2 same instruments so the harmonics are of the 1st are not canceled by the second

Can you try this ? This may help !  (not sure)

best

cyril

MacBook Pro 2019 16" + 2 x Odisseey G9 49"

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd

Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series, Many Synchronised libs
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 2, Art Conductor, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Wed, Dec 01 2010 11:10
by jammusique
Joined on Wed, Aug 04 2004, Paris, France, Posts 262

Hi Shawn,

You're technique outlined on your post above sounds interesting. I read a post on Gearslutz of a orchestral-cinema mixer who was doing something like you are doing. I'm going to check it out! Yes

WW complete. MirX Teldex, Cubase, PC
Posted on Wed, Dec 01 2010 15:42
by BadOrange
Joined on Tue, Nov 23 2010, Quebec, Posts 60
I find those diagrams perhaps accurate in mirroring a real life orchestra but the actual arrangement seems more a circumstance of necessity. They had to fit the instruments somewhere and things just ended up this way. With recording and the ability to place instruments anywhere, I find that I don't follow the traditional panning of a real orchestra.

I find that I mix orchestral works much different and perhaps more like a pop album. I try to keep the bass instruments centred, I pan the first violins left, the second violins right, The brass tend to be panned in the same philosophy with the more bass oriented instruments in the centre. IT also depends on the arrangement. If a certain instrument is prominent , I will try to centre it as much as I can similar to what you would do with the voice. I also try to arrange the panning so that when motives are exchanged from instrument to instrument, you don't get too much distraction from lets say going rather hard left to right to left and back again.

I also automate panning if I need to get an instrument out of the way. I suppose my goal is to make every instrument do its thing and be heard. With a good arrangement and clever mixing, you can get great results that might annoy a traditionalist but oh well. Can't please everyone.
Posted on Wed, Dec 01 2010 22:29
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 8054

Great input, BadOrange! Thanks for sharing a refreshingly different approach. Yes

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Sat, Dec 04 2010 23:01
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1772
BadOrange wrote:
..I pan the first violins left, the second violins right, The brass tend to be panned in the same philosophy with the more bass oriented instruments in the centre. IT also depends on the arrangement. If a certain instrument is prominent , I will try to centre it as much as I can similar to what you would do with the voice....

I do the mix very often this way as well:

                        d-basses

violins1   -   violas  -  cellos   -   violins 2

The advantage is a nice effect of stereo, a more balanced strings section and a more powerfull bass.

Listen to the strings of Kollos Weihnachtsfriede (A Christmas PlayAlong)

If you want to listen to the complete piece you will find it here.

Have fun

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Sun, Dec 12 2010 18:25
by BadOrange
Joined on Tue, Nov 23 2010, Quebec, Posts 60
I should of mentioned that although I tend to pan items depending on their frequency spectrum, I do keep in mind that instruments are part of a section and having panning that is quite drastic can sound weird especially if the material is homophonic and the sections themselves are acting like an instrument unto itself. I suppose it is a balancing act. There always is the possibility to pan certain frequencies instead of the entire instruments if you want to have the bass spectrum more centred but would like to maintain some stereo projection.
You cannot post new threads in this forum.
You cannot reply to threads in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.