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Jazz piece remixed
Last post Wed, Dec 29 2010 by suon, 14 replies.
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Posted on Wed, Dec 08 2010 03:24
by Marko
Joined on Mon, Dec 01 2003, Posts 184

This a jazz composition that I posted about a year or so ago using VE. I remixed this in MIR and modified the drum track.

Pick Up Sticks

Please give it a listen and tell me what you think. Is the bass too present?


Marko

Posted on Wed, Dec 08 2010 11:13
by Pekay
Joined on Sun, Apr 26 2009, Stockholm, Posts 81

 I think the sound is very natural and airy. The bass is not too present, in my taste there could actually a bit more presence.

Best, Pekay

Posted on Sat, Dec 11 2010 17:58
by Marko
Joined on Mon, Dec 01 2003, Posts 184

Thanks for listening closely Pekay. I find the jazz bass very difficult to mix.

Marko

Posted on Sat, Dec 11 2010 22:32
by BadOrange
Joined on Tue, Nov 23 2010, Quebec, Posts 60
found the reverb a little heavy especially on the drums. Not sure if you can change things or it is just a remixing. The drums sound rather non stylistic in both the sound and the manner played. Synth you modified the drum track, perhaps you can. The toms sound quite deep for jazz drums. The ride is rather lacking in body. The hihat which in jazz is usually louder than the kick which is another unusual thing in that there are no kick hits at all. In jazz they feather the kick drum so you can and they do play the kick drum alot and it doesn't get in the way. I probably wouldn't double the bass but a few accents here and there. and quieter than the ride but you can barely hear it. Part of the reason is that it sounds so far away. The way the ride is programmed sounds a little synthetic. The motion a jazz drummer makes at that speed is basically one motion down on 2 and 4 using the fingers to bounce the notes of and 3 + and 1 so basically the loudest accent would be on the 2 and 4 with a little decrease in loudness as the bounces from the one motion occur. It isn't that drastic as the fingers help with the consistency but you should definitely be accenting the 2 and 4 more.

I also thought that the panning also sort of made mix less cohesive. I would center the drums a a little more and perhaps have the ride and hihats a little to the side. The bass I would definitely centre and place the other instruments around the stereo field depending on which voices are passing the melody so you dont get weird stereo effects. I find Addictive Drums and the jazz expansion rather good. Here is a something I started working on the other day. Nothing much to show but I wanted you to listen to the drums. http://www.zshare.net/download/829002746c35b387/ its actually my first attempt at jazz but I played drums for about 8 years in my middle and high school and I 50% of what I worked on was jazz. I will admit its probably rather hard to program realistic drums if you don't actually play them as there are just small things that you only learn if you spend time at the instrument. I suppose that is like all instruments.
Posted on Sun, Dec 12 2010 11:13
by PaulR
Joined on Mon, Dec 22 2003, England, Posts 2371

Great stuff Marko! Sounds very late 50's early 60's.

Posted on Mon, Dec 13 2010 21:13
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5720

 That sounds great., really good music.   The bass is not too heavy at all.   The only thing I noticed was the sax attacks sounded maybe a little too clean ?  A little electronic at the beginning with the entrances sounding a little digital somehow and  couple lines doubled were too tight and perfect... maybe.   But it wasn't really noticeable and is a good mix and piece. 

Posted on Thu, Dec 16 2010 20:48
by Marko
Joined on Mon, Dec 01 2003, Posts 184

Thanks Paul. Thanks William. Perhaps I should have used more grace notes or a pitch bends.

 

Thanks for listening.

 

 

Thanks BadOrange. That's an awful lot to digest. With respect to the pattern, I'm playing a traditional pattern where the ride cymbal plays 1, 2-+, 3, 4-+, 1, etc., with a triplet swing beat, except this is in a 10/4 rhythm. I'm not sure about bouncing the notes on the 3 and 1 as you suggest, unless it was for an accent, an offbeat or for syncopation.

 

p.s. Sorry. I could not download or play the link you provided. Is there an mp3 file I could directly access?

 

Thanks.

 

Posted on Fri, Dec 17 2010 14:12
by BadOrange
Joined on Tue, Nov 23 2010, Quebec, Posts 60
i meant the

(and) a 3 where the accent is on 2
(and) a 1 where the accent is on 4

The bouncing is purely a mechanism of how drummers play the ride cymbal. They don't attack each note especially at that speed. There are only two wrist or arm hits if you will. ON 2 and 4. The rest is done with controlled bouncing of the stick.


The problem is that it sounds quite untraditional how you have it programmed. I wasn't suggesting changing notes at this point, just velocity and if possible your actual kit.
Posted on Sun, Dec 26 2010 01:35
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5720
Posted on Mon, Dec 27 2010 23:41
by HighwayChile
Joined on Mon, Dec 27 2010, Los Angeles, Posts 23
Marko first I like the composition...nice stuff.

Jazz is somewhat my thing......so I feel a little qualified to make comments although take what I say with a grain of salt. It is whether it sounds good to you that is the main thing.

Like William said, I can hear that these are samples obviously but it does not bother me much, as the composition almost lends itself to that. It is a quirky little piece with lot's of possibilities.....I hear portions of this composition in a film soundtrack, spread out over a scene....good stuff.

To my ear, the drums....all the elements of the kit..... and bass need attention to the space they occupy as far as separation, panning and EQ and reverb. The drums, bass etc all seem to be sitting dead center fighting for the same space.

For me you are right about the bass. It definitely needs remixing.....it is too loud and the tone of it needs help, a bit too boomy. Roll off some lows, maybe grab some mid's and take it back in the mix a little. It sounds more like an orchestral double bass rather than a jazz double bass if that makes any sense at all? Maybe since an upright in a jazz band is likely to be close mic'd or even have a pickup...or both. This would allow one to really dial in the EQ on it so it sits better in the mix. I might be way off base, forgive me if I am.

Overall the sound of the entire kit does not represent a good jazz kit to me. I really like the intro drum part and the sound of the kit really suits that.....but less so when the full band is going. Again this is just my taste here...ignore me.

As mentioned the hi-hat needs help. It should be crisper and more present.....whatever it takes....perhaps less reverb on it....anything so it is a bit more up front in the mix. This is where the listener will latch on to the groove. That "and" of every 1/8th note beat needs to really cut.

There are some cymbal decays that end abruptly...one stuck out, a crash at :48 and then a fast sticked cymbal part at 2:34.The sound of the ride cymbal bugs me a little......I prefer a ride that has a nice thin crisp sound and perhaps even a sizzle in this case. It has a little too much bell sound for me as if it were a small cymbal. I like those big rides so I really hear those "tings" off the stick tips, real nice and separated and sitting in a space where they are not fighting anything else.

To me if you lose the boom in the bass, drop it back in the mix, change that hat sound and bring it up....and see what you can do to calm that ride down.....it will be a killer little track. As someone suggested...maybe look at the reverb. I gather MIR is a convolution reverb.....if it is new to new are you perhaps overusing it or could you re-evaluate what sort of space you want to use?

Just thoughts here, I doubt I could even do 1/2 way as well as you have. All I know is what I like to hear after 40 and more years or so of listening to music.

Again, I really like the overall song, nice writing. I like the harmonies. I am sorry if I went too far with my suggestions....just stating my opinions and the track to me is real close...the writing is solid, nothing needed there, just some small EQ and mix things and you are home.

What library did you use BTW or if individual VI's which ones, drums, bass etc?
Pro Tools 10 w/CPTK| Eleven Rack| Sibelius6|Spectrasonics- Omnisphere, Trilian,StylusRMX| Kontakt 5| Garritan-Instant Orchestra,J&BB3,GPO4| Sibelius 6| Reason4| Drumcore3| Toontrack-EZ Drummer,Superior Drummer,Drumtracker,EZ Keys| Izotope- RX2, Ozone 5, Iris| EWQL PLAY -Silk, RA, Gypsy, Fab Four, Voices Of Passion, Symphonic Choirs, StormDrum 2, Symphonic Orchestra Plat.|Project Sam-Symphobia| 2.66 MacProQuad 8GB ram 10.6.8, 2.4 MacBook Pro Intel Core 2 Duo 4GB ram 10.7.5
Posted on Mon, Dec 27 2010 23:45
by HighwayChile
Joined on Mon, Dec 27 2010, Los Angeles, Posts 23
ps how do you guys get the paragraphs to format properly?



I take great care to compose my messages so the various sections and subjects are grouped by paragraphs etc but when I post it is one big glob of words. This happened over at another post I asked about VEPro.



I will try this one using big spacing, see if that does it. marko, your op was like that but subsequent posts came out like mine except peckay(?) and then Marko's again had a different font and distinct paragraphs.
Pro Tools 10 w/CPTK| Eleven Rack| Sibelius6|Spectrasonics- Omnisphere, Trilian,StylusRMX| Kontakt 5| Garritan-Instant Orchestra,J&BB3,GPO4| Sibelius 6| Reason4| Drumcore3| Toontrack-EZ Drummer,Superior Drummer,Drumtracker,EZ Keys| Izotope- RX2, Ozone 5, Iris| EWQL PLAY -Silk, RA, Gypsy, Fab Four, Voices Of Passion, Symphonic Choirs, StormDrum 2, Symphonic Orchestra Plat.|Project Sam-Symphobia| 2.66 MacProQuad 8GB ram 10.6.8, 2.4 MacBook Pro Intel Core 2 Duo 4GB ram 10.7.5
Posted on Tue, Dec 28 2010 03:08
by BadOrange
Joined on Tue, Nov 23 2010, Quebec, Posts 60
after many large paragraphs of my own dribble I figured I could use some html tags. use the "br" tag and make sure you use the open triangle and close triangle to enclose the command. Check out html commands for more info.
Posted on Tue, Dec 28 2010 12:06
by doubleattack
Joined on Fri, Jul 09 2010, Leipzig, Germany, Posts 237

HighwayChile wrote:
ps how do you guys get the paragraphs to format properly? I take great care to compose my messages so the various sections and subjects are grouped by paragraphs etc but when I post it is one big glob of words. This happened over at another post I asked about VEPro. I will try this one using big spacing, see if that does it. marko, your op was like that but subsequent posts came out like mine except peckay(?) and then Marko's again had a different font and distinct paragraphs.
 

Hallo HighwayChile,

go to >Profile >Community >Content Editor >choose "enabled". Hope this helps. (Dietz helped me when I've had the same problem. And sorry folks, forgive me the short interlude out of theme in this thread...)

Best

Frank

Posted on Wed, Dec 29 2010 14:53
by suon
Joined on Sat, Sep 04 2010, Posts 106

This is cool =)

However, I disagree about the bass...   in my opinion it is too "boomy".   I'm listening on my AKG 702 headphones which are known to be light/neutral on the bass. For many people, jazz bass is all about the noises and loose string vibrations that you hear, which (I think?) come from mid frequencies.

You also might want to check with an analyzer if there are subbass frequencies you can remove.  maybe it just needs a high pass filter around 40-50 Hz?.

Anyway, I like it =)

~Shawn

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