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softer legato transitions w/ VI pro?
Last post Tue, Sep 23 2014 by GoranTch, 24 replies.
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Posted on Mon, Jan 24 2011 07:49
by JT3_Jon
Joined on Fri, Jun 04 2004, Palmdale CA (1 hour north of LA), Posts 469

Hello,

Is it possible to actually control the volume of the legato transitions? I've watched the tutorial on how to control the speed via sample start, but is it possible to control the volume of these transition samples as well? In some instrument, like clarinet for example, the legato transitions can be very loud and jump out at you, and right now I have to manually draw in volume dips to compensate (something which cannot be done on the fly). It would be GREAT if there was a way to control the volume of the legato transitions with a slider, thus allowing adjustments on the fly. 

Thanks in advance for your help and reply. I must say, VI pro is by far the BEST sample player on the market!! Keep up the great work!! 

Epic Prog rock music using VSL samples - http://www.aeonsatori.com

System specs: Mac Pro 5,1 3.33GHz 12 core 48GB RAM
OS 10.11.6 Cubase 8.5 Vienna Ensemble Pro 6.0.27022(64-bit)

PC: Core i7-2600 32GB Ram, Windows 8, Vienna Ensemble Pro 6.0.17011(64-bit)
Posted on Mon, Jan 24 2011 09:50
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

No it's not possible, but you can easily set a sample offset, so that you hear less of the transition.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
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Posted on Mon, Jan 24 2011 18:32
by JT3_Jon
Joined on Fri, Jun 04 2004, Palmdale CA (1 hour north of LA), Posts 469

yeah, I'm aware of the sample offset which is great if you want it faster, but I like the length/feel of the legato but its just a bit too loud for my tastes occasionally. Plus volume control of the legato would also add to the realism as its not always the same dynamic.  

Wonder if VSL will come out with an update that would allow this functionality? If anyone else would like to see this, PLEASE let you voice be heard by either replying in this thread of sending them an email.

Epic Prog rock music using VSL samples - http://www.aeonsatori.com

System specs: Mac Pro 5,1 3.33GHz 12 core 48GB RAM
OS 10.11.6 Cubase 8.5 Vienna Ensemble Pro 6.0.27022(64-bit)

PC: Core i7-2600 32GB Ram, Windows 8, Vienna Ensemble Pro 6.0.17011(64-bit)
Posted on Mon, Jan 24 2011 18:54
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

As the legato transition itself is not a separate sample, how do you see this being implemented?

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Mon, Jan 24 2011 19:00
by JT3_Jon
Joined on Fri, Jun 04 2004, Palmdale CA (1 hour north of LA), Posts 469

If they are able to adjust the sample offset of just the legato transition, why couldn't they adjust the volume as well? Unless I'm missing something, I thought the purpose of true legato IS that it's a recorded sample...

Epic Prog rock music using VSL samples - http://www.aeonsatori.com

System specs: Mac Pro 5,1 3.33GHz 12 core 48GB RAM
OS 10.11.6 Cubase 8.5 Vienna Ensemble Pro 6.0.27022(64-bit)

PC: Core i7-2600 32GB Ram, Windows 8, Vienna Ensemble Pro 6.0.17011(64-bit)
Posted on Mon, Jan 24 2011 19:20
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

 The sample offset is just that; a sample offset. It just so happens that with legato samples is affects the transitions.

The transition is not a separate sample; it is recorded joined on to the following note. You can test this by playing one of the solo instruments that is not looped, such as the Vienna Horn. Play a note until it stops and then play the next note legato. You will hear the fist note, a gap and then the second note, preceded by a a kind of grace note. This grace note is the legato transition, but as you can hear it's attached to the following note and is not a separate entity.

Just a thought. You are using velocity xFade, aren't you?

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Mon, Jan 24 2011 19:28
by JT3_Jon
Joined on Fri, Jun 04 2004, Palmdale CA (1 hour north of LA), Posts 469

Oh I see. Thank you for explaining the legato. I see now why it was so easy to implement sample offset, but how it would be more difficult to implement volume changes for just the legato transition. 

Yeah, I use velo X-fade, and I currently go back a draw in CC11 expression dips for the legato transitions that I feel are just too loud. It can be a trick to get this to sound natural, as expression effects the whole instrument, and not just the legato transition, which is the only part I want to lower in volume. A legato volume fader would allow me to set the volume of these transitions before playing, so I hopefully wouldn't have to go back and draw in these dips for just the legato transitions.

Epic Prog rock music using VSL samples - http://www.aeonsatori.com

System specs: Mac Pro 5,1 3.33GHz 12 core 48GB RAM
OS 10.11.6 Cubase 8.5 Vienna Ensemble Pro 6.0.27022(64-bit)

PC: Core i7-2600 32GB Ram, Windows 8, Vienna Ensemble Pro 6.0.17011(64-bit)
Posted on Mon, Jan 24 2011 19:48
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

I think you would need a controller to lower the volume of the start of a sample for a specific length. Unfortunately the legato transitions are not all the same length, so you would need a controller to control the length as well. You would also have to control the length or speed of the crossfade to the original volume of the sample afterwards.

Personally I think that it would be quicker to draw in the volume change, just as you have been doing, but let's see what the VSL gurus have to say about it.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Thu, Feb 03 2011 06:15
by inwinterhesleeps
Joined on Sat, Dec 03 2005, Posts 68

This would be an excellent feature to extend the expression possibilities of VIPro.

It could be implemented (although it would not be a perfect solution) by applying a special fade in to note transitions (it could also apply to portamento). This special "fade" is more like an envelope attack control, so you can set start level and time to reach %100 volume and perhaps a curve value to give even better control.

I think this could be built into VIPro but it's up to the VSL team to decide if it adds enough value for the effort to implement it. Also they are the only ones able to try it out and see if actually works well enough to be useful.

I would certainly vote for its usefulness. The more we can shape the sound the better.

Tom

Posted on Fri, Feb 04 2011 14:03
by benbartlett
Joined on Thu, Apr 26 2007, Posts 160

Sorry to say this, but is it not just a fault of the VE programming that the legato transition "pops" out? From my experience some instruments exhibit this and others don't (all this using Vel-X fade).

B

Posted on Fri, Feb 04 2011 15:02
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

I was thinking about all of this earlier in the week, and I don't think that the legato transitions are too loud. I think that the problem is that the start of the destination note is sometimes too loud (or too abrubt), causing a bump. If this is the case, then changing the volume of the transition, even if it is possible, won't do anything.

However, it would be good to post some examples of a "too loud" transition, so that we can all agree as to what we are hearing.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Fri, Jan 13 2012 17:31
by Thomas82
Joined on Tue, Sep 04 2007, Posts 42

I also would like to have this legato volume control. Other libraries already have it, so I don´t see why there should be a problem to the VSL tech team.

It´s extremely annoying with this jumpy legato transitions that I can´t control without spending hours just for that. And it is one of the reason I haven´t bought so much from VSL yet. But I would be really surprised if this (Leg Trans) will remain in the future, when so much is progressing overall with this library. But this small "bugs" makes a huge deal for me and delays any purchase.

VSL please fix this!

Gigabyte X99-UD5, i7 5930K 3,5GHz, 64Gb Crucial DDR4 2133MHz, Samsung SSD 500Gb x 8, MSI Radeon RX 580
Windows 10 Pro (21H2), Cubase 11.0.41
Posted on Mon, Sep 15 2014 19:19
by BachRules
Joined on Sun, Mar 30 2014, Posts 360

DG wrote:
... it would be good to post some examples of a "too loud" transition....

Clarinet example here:

http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/t/37983.aspx

I guess for the legato samples, they sampled a clarinetist who played his instrument strangely louder during the transitions. I'd thought legato meant maintaining contant volume while changing pitches.

Posted on Mon, Sep 15 2014 19:39
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
Sirthoms wrote:

I also would like to have this legato volume control. Other libraries already have it, so I don´t see why there should be a problem to the VSL tech team.

Other libraries bolt a transition onto a sustain, so the transition
is actually a separate file. That's why it's easy to give users a
transition control. The only way to do it in VSL with the current player
would be to have a control similar to the stretch control and maybe that's something that the team could consider for the future.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Mon, Sep 15 2014 19:41
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
BachRules wrote:

DG wrote:
... it would be good to post some examples of a "too loud" transition....

Clarinet example here:

http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/t/37983.aspx

Sorry, I don't want to have to download an extra app just to play a wav file.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Mon, Sep 15 2014 19:45
by BachRules
Joined on Sun, Mar 30 2014, Posts 360
DG wrote:
Sirthoms wrote:

I also would like to have this legato volume control. Other libraries already have it, so I don´t see why there should be a problem to the VSL tech team.

Other libraries bolt a transition onto a sustain, so the transition is actually a separate file.

After my previous post, I thought some more and realize my example was of a patch where they did in fact bolt a transition onto a sustain, not regular legato but:

/B -  Woodwind patches/46 Clarinets - a3/98 RESOURCES/03 Perf Speed variation/01 KL-3_perf-leg_sustain

When I play the same thing with the regular legato patch, it's not so bumpy in the volume. My apologies to the carinetist, as it seems the erratic volume is due to the editing of the samples.

Posted on Mon, Sep 15 2014 20:11
by BachRules
Joined on Sun, Mar 30 2014, Posts 360
DG wrote:
BachRules wrote:

DG wrote:
... it would be good to post some examples of a "too loud" transition....

Clarinet example here:

http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/t/37983.aspx

Sorry, I don't want to have to download an extra app just to play a wav file.

DG

I don't know of any app you'd need to download. I posted a wav file in Google Drive. When I click the link I posted, it gives me an option to play the wav in my browser or to download it and play it locally on my machine. I thought it was common to post files that way on music forums. It doesn't require any more mouse-clicks or effort than listening to something on SoundCloud, and it spares listeners the sound-degradation which SoundCloud adds to wav files. But suit yourself.

Posted on Tue, Sep 16 2014 06:51
by Casiquire
Joined on Sat, May 01 2010, Posts 325
DG wrote:
BachRules wrote:

DG wrote:
... it would be good to post some examples of a "too loud" transition....

Clarinet example here:

http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/t/37983.aspx

Sorry, I don't want to have to download an extra app just to play a wav file.

DG

It plays just fine for me, at least in Chrome, without extra downloads.  Or are you on a mobile system?  Anyway the transitions are quite loud in that example.  I've seen similar things while using VSL myself and it does seem like something that could get ironed out in scripting.

This seems to be one of the most-often-requested features in VSL so I think it would be worth looking into.  Implementation should be easy by having a script play a soft fade-in between the old sample and the new for the first, idk, 1/8th of a second, which could also be an automatable value.  Sure not all transitions are the same but they are always close enough in time that one value would cover most situations, and offering an automatable slider would cover the rest.

Posted on Tue, Sep 16 2014 09:03
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 13354

Hi, 

I´d check the Polyphonic Legato Video for VI PRO. You can change the Start Offset time of the legatos in the "Advanced Tab" of the Advanced View, this way you also get different legato transitions (by shortening the transition). Starts around 2:10

Best, 

Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Wed, Sep 17 2014 05:51
by Casiquire
Joined on Sat, May 01 2010, Posts 325

Paul - that's already been discussed ;o)

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