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MIR PRO: Around the corner?
Last post Sun, Oct 16 2011 by Dietz, 229 replies.
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Posted on Mon, Jun 20 2011 17:08
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 8106

Vienna MIR didn't offer audio inputs up to now.

MIR Pro will rely on a new version of Vienna Ensemble Pro. Both will offer multiple audio-inputs and -outputs, also via LAN. Both will be deeply integrated into practically any modern DAW, much like a meta-plugin with a dedicated send/return scheme, automation, and full latency compensation (within the limits imposed by the DAW, of course).

HTH,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Mon, Jun 20 2011 17:18
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 8106

Quoting myself from an earlier message in this thread:

Dietz wrote:
[...] We've decided to implement the possibities that were introduced with the new Hybrid Reverb into MIR, too. [...]

I was made aware of the fact that this statement is misleading. I should have written: We have decided to investigate the possibilities of implementing the features introduced with the new Hybrid Reverb into MIR Pro. We haven't come up with a final solution yet. Sorry for any confusion this little sentence might have caused.

My bad ... Embarrassed

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Mon, Jun 20 2011 17:59
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
Dietz wrote:

Vienna MIR didn't offer audio inputs up to now.

MIR Pro will rely on a new version of Vienna Ensemble Pro. Both will offer multiple audio-inputs and -outputs, also via LAN. Both will be deeply integrated into practically any modern DAW, much like a meta-plugin with a dedicated send/return scheme, automation, and full latency compensation (within the limits imposed by the DAW, of course).

HTH,

 

 This is the sort on information we need. We were all just goading you into revealing secrets and you fell for it. Big Smile

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Mon, Jun 20 2011 20:20
by Errikos
Joined on Tue, Jun 12 2007, Posts 1115

Thanks for the info. One more post for clarification if you don't mind DG - and Dietz this is not a complete departure from topic as I'd like to know whether MIR Pro will operate properly along with and on top of everything else on the Mac, especially for demanding scores ex. Mahler 2nd.

I had a look at those pages you referred to and the comparative results were not as damning, although slightly in favour of Windows and then only DAWs available on both platforms were considered (of course); it doesn't say much about how Logic compares for similar tasks, although I read little and mostly scanned the material (quite a lot of it there). Also, from what I understood, Microsoft became more efficient than Apple only after the introduction of Windows 7, if you switched back in 2004 I am unclear as to why you decided thusly back then (if reasons were pirated software or other of course this has nothing to do with comparing the two OSs)

When you say low latency is all important to you because you play your compositions "live", what do you mean? Don't you play/sequence one instrument (even polyphonic) in at a time? Are you saying that Logic and MacOS are inadequate for that? My M.O. involves importing the MIDI of a Sibelius score into Logic and working on it thereon. So my work on the DAW consists of EQing, automation, etc. and mixing, but not with frozen tracks. All tracks are "live" tracks right up to bouncing. In addition, not mentioning RAM at all in your post, makes me assume that it is not a main concern. I'd appreciate your - and everyone else's - insights.

If you can't notate/MIDI it yourself, it's NOT your music!

In these modern days to be vulgar, illiterate, common and vicious, seems to give a man a marvelous infinity of rights that his honest fathers never dreamed of. - Oscar Wilde
Posted on Mon, Jun 20 2011 21:31
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
Errikos wrote:

Thanks for the info. One more post for clarification if you don't mind DG - and Dietz this is not a complete departure from topic as I'd like to know whether MIR Pro will operate properly along with and on top of everything else on the Mac, especially for demanding scores ex. Mahler 2nd.

 

I think that it will depend on your way of working. I've already found that I can't actually play my template at a buffer of 128 in MIR, so I'll have to use some sort of freeze or audio input, which is why I've been interested in what Dietz has been able to reveal so far about MIR Pro.

Errikos wrote:

I had a look at those pages you referred to and the comparative results were not as damning, although slightly in favour of Windows and then only DAWs available on both platforms were considered (of course); it doesn't say much about how Logic compares for similar tasks, although I read little and mostly scanned the material (quite a lot of it there). Also, from what I understood, Microsoft became more efficient than Apple only after the introduction of Windows 7, if you switched back in 2004 I am unclear as to why you decided thusly back then (if reasons were pirated software or other of course this has nothing to do with comparing the two OSs)

 

 At the buffer I work at and with an interface very similar to mine the difference with Cubase 5.5 was 160 voices on OSX and 400 in Windows. That's a very large difference.

It wasn't the advent of Windows 7 that improved things. In fact some people actually think that XP was more efficient, and I've seen no evidence to refute this. Certainly the benchmarks around at the time using Cubase put Windows way ahead. I moved over to XP in 2004 and when VSL came out with their 64bit software (in 2006 I think), I moved over to XP 64bit. 

Errikos wrote:

When you say low latency is all important to you because you play your compositions "live", what do you mean? Don't you play/sequence one instrument (even polyphonic) in at a time? Are you saying that Logic and MacOS are inadequate for that? My M.O. involves importing the MIDI of a Sibelius score into Logic and working on it thereon. So my work on the DAW consists of EQing, automation, etc. and mixing, but not with frozen tracks. All tracks are "live" tracks right up to bouncing. In addition, not mentioning RAM at all in your post, makes me assume that it is not a main concern. I'd appreciate your - and everyone else's - insights.

 

I do play one instrument at a time, but nothing is printed until I get to the end. Obviously I could freeze instruments as I go, but then I'd have to un-freeze to edit and that would be a waste of time for me. I wouldn't be able to work this way using OSX on the computer that I have (which is sort of equivalent to a 2010 mac Pro).

However, the way that you work means that you can work at a much higher buffer so I don't think you'll have the same needs as I do.

Look, in the end the best you can do is to get the demo, when it's available, and try it for yourself.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Mon, Jun 20 2011 21:38
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2747
Errikos wrote:

I had a look at those pages you referred to and the comparative results were not as damning, although slightly in favour of Windows and then only DAWs available on both platforms were considered (of course); it doesn't say much about how Logic compares for similar tasks, although I read little and mostly scanned the material (quite a lot of it there). Also, from what I understood, Microsoft became more efficient than Apple only after the introduction of Windows 7, if you switched back in 2004 I am unclear as to why you decided thusly back then (if reasons were pirated software or other of course this has nothing to do with comparing the two OSs)

Where are those test ?

Are they with the new VE/VI PRO ? (8008) if not you have to do them again because all disk I/O have been divides by hundreds

MacBook Pro 2019 16" + 2 x Odisseey G9 49"

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd

Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series, Many Synchronised libs
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 2, Art Conductor, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Mon, Jun 20 2011 21:47
by Errikos
Joined on Tue, Jun 12 2007, Posts 1115

@DG: Thanks.

@Cyril: www.dawbench.com

Any thoughts?

If you can't notate/MIDI it yourself, it's NOT your music!

In these modern days to be vulgar, illiterate, common and vicious, seems to give a man a marvelous infinity of rights that his honest fathers never dreamed of. - Oscar Wilde
Posted on Tue, Jun 21 2011 03:55
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2747
DG wrote:

I do play one instrument at a time, but nothing is printed until I get to the end. Obviously I could freeze instruments as I go, but then I'd have to un-freeze to edit and that would be a waste of time for me. I wouldn't be able to work this way using OSX on the computer that I have (which is sort of equivalent to a 2010 mac Pro).

However, the way that you work means that you can work at a much higher buffer so I don't think you'll have the same needs as I do.

Look, in the end the best you can do is to get the demo, when it's available, and try it for yourself.

DG

Hi DG

How did you calculate the number of voices in OSX

I would like to test that on my macpro (testing with exs on my old Macpro 2008 I had a souvenir of 800 voices)

You computer is not "sort of a Mac pro 2010" 

Today with my 2010 Mac pro I can play the "New world of Anton Dvorak , the version where tremolos are done with midi notes)" with hardly any activity (was 80% on my 2008 Macpro)

Best

Cyril

MacBook Pro 2019 16" + 2 x Odisseey G9 49"

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd

Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series, Many Synchronised libs
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 2, Art Conductor, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Tue, Jun 21 2011 06:59
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

Cyril, this is all getting so OT, that I think there is not much point in discussing it further here. If you want to benchmark your machine, download the test session from www.dawbench.com but do remember to make sure you are in live mode, or  the process buffer on Logic will skew your results.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Tue, Jun 21 2011 09:44
by patrik
Joined on Thu, Apr 05 2007, near Frankfurt, Germany, Posts 144
Dietz wrote:

Vienna MIR didn't offer audio inputs up to now.

MIR Pro will rely on a new version of Vienna Ensemble Pro. Both will offer multiple audio-inputs and -outputs, also via LAN. Both will be deeply integrated into practically any modern DAW, much like a meta-plugin with a dedicated send/return scheme, automation, and full latency compensation (within the limits imposed by the DAW, of course).

HTH,

...this sounds absolutely awesome! Excitement for the upcoming release grows and grows....

And on the other hand, I really like the sound of the new hybrid reverb... but in terms of the upcoming MIR pro, (of cause just from speculating what this would mean and from experimenting with the hybrid reverb plugin during the last few weeks) it wouldn't be a feature that I am personally too much excited about (all the other features you just wrote about seem much more important to me personally...) Mainly because I love the basic idea of the MIR concept of creating a realistic (virtual) image of a room/venue rather than creating a reverb per se. Modifying this image afterwards with a extra plugin would be a different step in the processing and therefore seems much more natural to me; as if you take a live-recording and process this using all sorts of plugins. But doing so within the creation of the "live recording" per se...? I don't know... but anyway, I am sure, the actual implementation you guys come up with will be an exciting and logically completely convincing additional feature....

greetings,

Patrik

Master:
Intel Xeon E5-2620 (x2)
Win 7 64bit
48 GB RAM
Behringer X32 (connected via USB 2)
Cubase 7.03

Slave 1 (MIR):
2 x Intel Xeon E5530; 2,4 GHZ
24 GB RAM
Windows 7
ASIO: EMU PCIe, ASIO4all
midi: M-Audio 4x4

Slave 2 (VEPro):
I7 940; 2,93 GHz
12 GB RAM
Windows VISTA SP2

Woodwinds 1 +2 extended, Brass 1 extended, Dimension Brass, Percussion extended, Elements standard, Vienna Imperial., Konzerthaus Organ, Special Keyboards, Vienna Choir extended, Solo Strings 1 + 2 extended, Chamber Strings 1 extended, Orchestral Strings 1 + 2 extended, Appasionata Strings 1 extended, Harps extended, Vienna MIR, Room Pack 2 + 3, Vienna Ensemble Pro
Posted on Tue, Jun 21 2011 11:16
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 8106
patrik wrote:
[...] And on the other hand, I really like the sound of the new hybrid reverb... but in terms of the upcoming MIR pro, (of cause just from speculating what this would mean and from experimenting with the hybrid reverb plugin during the last few weeks) it wouldn't be a feature that I am personally too much excited about (all the other features you just wrote about seem much more important to me personally...) Mainly because I love the basic idea of the MIR concept of creating a realistic (virtual) image of a room/venue rather than creating a reverb per se. Modifying this image afterwards with a extra plugin would be a different step in the processing and therefore seems much more natural to me; as if you take a live-recording and process this using all sorts of plugins. But doing so within the creation of the "live recording" per se...? I don't know... but anyway, I am sure, the actual implementation you guys come up with will be an exciting and logically completely convincing additional feature.... [...]

As I said before: We are still trying to figure out a meaningful way to do this.

In principle, I share your opinion about realism. But then, even in the "Real World", orchestral recordings get sweetened with algorithmic reverb all the time. Our idea was to achieve this with the same intuitive approach as with "pure" MIR processing. A pretty intriguing concept - but its realisation is more complex (and demanding in regards of CPU cycles!) than one might think.

Let's see what we can come up with. Maybe this feature won't make it into the first incarnation of MIR Pro.

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Tue, Jun 21 2011 12:15
by jammusique
Joined on Wed, Aug 04 2004, Paris, France, Posts 262

Dietz, that's what I was going to suggest. You said here a couple of pages ago that MIR Pro was essentially ready. Why not just launch it as is, and then figure out the addition of the Algorithmic reverb later on?

WW complete. MirX Teldex, Cubase, PC
Posted on Tue, Jun 21 2011 12:31
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 8106

"Inquiring minds want to know." ... :-) ... and: "You never get a second chance to make a first impression!"

"Ready" means that the whole application works, but of course there are still some rough edges we want to take care for in an extensive testing phase.

Thanks for your interest & your patience!

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Tue, Jun 21 2011 17:32
by jammusique
Joined on Wed, Aug 04 2004, Paris, France, Posts 262

Seems to me that MIR Pro will probably interest exclusively "high-end" users, most of whom already have an M7, PCM 92, or other great SW algorithmic reverb, and may well not want the Hybrid tail. And more importantly, they know how to blend different reverbs.

Your Hybrid reverb seem more of an all in one product, with the presets solving all the problems for even the brain-dread users!

Just sayin’ .....Yes

WW complete. MirX Teldex, Cubase, PC
Posted on Tue, Jun 21 2011 20:31
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2747

We have already spoke of this. it's just a marketing strategy  ; cheap and a lot of user v.s. expensive and only rich studios

MacBook Pro 2019 16" + 2 x Odisseey G9 49"

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd

Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series, Many Synchronised libs
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 2, Art Conductor, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Thu, Jun 23 2011 15:44
by GoranTch
Joined on Tue, Mar 14 2006, Berlin, Germany, Posts 528
jammusique wrote:

Seems to me that MIR Pro will probably interest exclusively "high-end" users

Don't think so. It will depend on the price, but if it remains moderate, highly improbable...

Posted on Thu, Jun 23 2011 15:56
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 8106

Pricing will also depend on existing license(s) for Vienna Ensemble Pro and/or Vienna MIR. Both will be taken into account when ordering MIR Pro (once its released).

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Sat, Jun 25 2011 04:20
by OLD GOOD MAN
Joined on Fri, May 07 2010, Posts 7

Hello Dietz,I am a new comer of Vienna MIR,and ,I just come here found MIR Pro,can you tell me what is MIR Pro,is it diffrent with Vienna MIR? Thank you.

Posted on Sat, Jun 25 2011 13:06
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 8106
OLD GOOD MAN wrote:
Hello Dietz,I am a new comer of Vienna MIR,and ,I just come here found MIR Pro,can you tell me what is MIR Pro,is it diffrent with Vienna MIR? Thank you.

Hi,

I wrote an answer in the dedicated thread you opened for this question:

-> http://community.vsl.co.at/foru...28947/187026.aspx#187026

:-)

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Sun, Jun 26 2011 13:03
by GoranTch
Joined on Tue, Mar 14 2006, Berlin, Germany, Posts 528
Dietz wrote:

Pricing will also depend on existing license(s) for Vienna Ensemble Pro and/or Vienna MIR. Both will be taken into account when ordering MIR Pro (once its released).

Music to my ears... :-)

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