Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Forum Jump  
VSL Divisi / Dimension Strings
Last post Sun, Dec 04 2011 by SJSF, 62 replies.
Options
Go to last post
4 Pages123>»
Posted on Sun, Sep 11 2011 15:41
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Posts 498

I have a few questions for VSL, I'm trying to keep them as generic as possible.

When VSL completes the massively desired 'divisi library', I'm wanting to know whether there is a desire to build the libraries the same way as existing libraries or if VSL has thought about exploring more options. Whether that be more types of articulations than before, or a different approach to divisi than HS or DVZ are using. I'm wanting to know whether VSL is simply going to have Violin Ia, Ib, IIa, IIb and that's it... or if VSL is thinking more 'outside the box' in some way or form. I'm not asking what VSL will specifically do but simply if it is something more than the current paradigm VSL has had previously.

If VSL started recording today (I surely hope not! lol) how long-ish might it take to complete such a library? I know that VSL could have started a year ago, and may not even start for a year... but I'm curious as I have no idea how long these things take. If it was started today, would we likely be looking at 1 year, 5 years, tomorrow? lol - I'm curious about the time it takes on VSL's part, from recording, editing, to completion.

This is my only question that I think may not be able to be answered. I'm concerned about the size of the new library, not storage but the string sections. I know I won't get specifics, but where I'm concerned is Orchestral v Appassionata v __________? I don't want to see an all new orchestral library that is just divisi and nothing new other than that. Will it be the exact same as one of the current libraries (not asking which one) or will it be an absolutely new library? My concern is that I don't want 1) an addition to an existing library or 2) a replacement for an existing library (something that essentially is the Orchestral string library, but divisi instead). Will it be more than the current offerings other than simply adding divisi strings?

Thanks,

Sean

Posted on Sun, Sep 11 2011 16:40
by muziksculp
Joined on Fri, Oct 03 2003, U.S.A., Posts 404

Wink Good luck getting any feedback from VSL regarding any new/improved Strings libraries. They have been totally mute about it.

Hopefully we will see a big improvement in their next generation strings libraries. When will this finally happen ? .... Is anyone's guess at this point in time.  As long as they are listening to user requests, and taking action, we should see something soon.

Otherwise, there are other options on the market to fill the gaps of VSL as far as strings are concerned.

Posted on Sun, Sep 11 2011 19:19
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1726
muziksculp wrote:
...Hopefully we will see a big improvement in their next generation strings libraries...

Big Improvement?

When I listen to DVZ and other new Libraries - They are not sounding better even if they have a lot more options.

Further: People nowadays are always asking for divisi. Nice to have it but this isn't really a necessary everday matter even if some other companies made this theme to their speciality and highlight.

From my personal point of view I would speak more about an expansion than of an improvement.

I believe the question should be:

How could we come even closer to a real performance? If we ask this question we need...

  1. some more articulations (min 4 layers)
  2. most of the articulations should be available either with Vib or without Vib - if possible with "Sweet Vib" and  "Normal Vib" Smile
  3. 4 levels with the legato samples (just as sus4Levl-perf - it allows nice X-fading sequences) 
  4. more levels with the dynamic samples (3-4 for dim/cresc, 2(-3) for sfz, etc.)
  5. Two different Violins
  6. Two different Cellos
  7. ...

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Sun, Sep 11 2011 19:40
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Posts 498

Beat, I agree. I don't think that the current offerings are bad by any means. I'm just hoping for something that isn't just a replacement of the current offerings but that expands. I want Divisi for a sense of depth and realism. DVZ isn't bad, but it's just not VSL quality. Their approach certainly provides a good deal of flexibility and I like that, but I'd rather have VSL quality and some of that flexibility instead of less quality with all the flexibility.

Two Violins and Cellos would be great. I keep hoping for a Strativeri download violin myself.

Oh, and fyi... your first 3 points- I completely agree! More articulations and mostly with and without Vib would be great. In the end, the most important thing is the library's ability to replicate a real orchestra. Those first 3 points are absolutely relevant to that goal.

-Sean

Posted on Sun, Sep 11 2011 20:04
by Shawn Gibson
Joined on Tue, Sep 23 2008, Toronto, Posts 187

I can't imagime a 'big improvement" with VSL.They've done everythnig perfectly altready/

If you need a 2, copy paste, move it up a semitone, then back down with MIDI.

Vienna gives you  a chance to succed. EW doesn't.

Eternal Nube with a passion for all-things VSL.
Posted on Sun, Sep 11 2011 20:53
by muziksculp
Joined on Fri, Oct 03 2003, U.S.A., Posts 404

Sorry... but, VSL strings are not perfect !

 VSL strings can sound much better, actually, so far, the best and most realistic strings I have come across are 'Spitfire Symph. Strings'. They sound amazingly realistic, and have a beautiful timbre, but are not commercially available to everyone (too bad).

I'm sure VSL can do much better with their Strings, the only way is to offer new Strings libraries to complement, and improve their current line of Strings libraries. Hopefully they are not ignoring my, and other user requests. I would love to see some new improved VSL strings, and will be delighted to hear from VSL development if we can expect this to happen in the near future.

Thanks,

Muziksculp

Posted on Sun, Sep 11 2011 21:25
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

muziksculp wrote:
 

 VSL strings can sound much better, actually, so far, the best and most realistic strings I have come across are 'Spitfire Symph. Strings'. They sound amazingly realistic, and have a beautiful timbre, but are not commercially available to everyone (too bad).

 

I guess it all depends on what you like. They don't sound great to be, and there is all that unwieldy baked in reverb that you can't get rid of. It's hard enough to work in that studio with live players, but with samples it makes no sense to me.

muziksculp wrote:
 

I'm sure VSL can do much better with their Strings, the only way is to offer new Strings libraries to complement, and improve their current line of Strings libraries. Hopefully they are not ignoring my, and other user requests. I would love to see some new improved VSL strings, and will be delighted to hear from VSL development if we can expect this to happen in the near future.

Thanks,

Muziksculp

 

There are things that VSL (and all companies, for that matter) can do to improve their strings samples. However, a lot of it requires detailed knowledge of how strings players play, in order to program it properly, and most people would not want to learn this sort of thing, so it is always going to be a compromise. The best thing to do (IMO) is to record your own string library exactly as you want to (as I am, funnily enough...!).

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Sun, Sep 11 2011 22:02
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Posts 498

$19k for a brass library? Are you kidding me!? I don't care HOW good a library can be, there is a point in cost where it would be better to record your own brass performances, even if it isn't in Air Studios. Even then, VSL's brass is so well done, that the Spitfire demo did not impress me any more than VSL's product.

The Spitfire demo's showcase some great stuff, but 1- There were only certain things better than VSL, plenty of it was equal or worse. Each has an advantage. 2- For the cost, I'd stick with VSL and get a more flexible (dry) library. Even if money wasn't a factor, Spitfire wasn't so impressive to say it was better than VSL, imo anyway.

-Sean

Posted on Mon, Sep 12 2011 02:10
by noldar12
Joined on Thu, Dec 04 2008, Posts 582

Having been a trained classical bassist, I continue to be - at least somewhat - amazed by various requests, and the dominance of a "Hollywood sound" in those requests (granted scoring for film is one of the major means of potentially earning money).

Looking at LASS, among others, while it does section divisi well, its limited articulations in no way reflects what a real player can do with a bow.  One may gain realistic divisi, but end up losing a far greater degree of realism with the severely limited articulations.

IMO, it is of far greater importance to learn to write string parts that are nuanced in ways players would play them, than to have "perfect" divisi.  For traditional two part divisi, the resources already exist within VSL to do that fairly well: layer orchestral and chamber strings for the orchestral string sections, and when divisi is needed, play one note using orchestral strings, and the other using chamber strings - not perfect, but still a good alternative. 

I really agree with Beat. 

To my ear, VSL's strings come the closest to the sound of a real orchestral string section.  Are they perfect?  No.  But comparing them to various competitors, VSL comes far closer.  Note: one of the things I would wish for would be articulations where the bow is left on the string after the note is played.  A real player will often leave the bow on the string during very brief rests, as taking the bow off the string for a short period of time, and them putting it right back on the string is wasted motion.  As long as the bow does not move, no sound will result.

Now would Dimension Strings be a good thing?  Most likely, yes - provided it contains a full range of articulations, and/or does not introduce other major compromises. 

Posted on Mon, Sep 12 2011 05:55
by muziksculp
Joined on Fri, Oct 03 2003, U.S.A., Posts 404

I agree that having a huge selection of string articulations, that one can instantly switch between, to achieve a high-degree of string playing realism, and in real time, is a very important feature, which then brings me to a simple question :

Why didn't VSL expand the articulations of their Appassionata Strings ? 

Maybe VSL will eventually offer something like an Appassionata Strings Expander, that will make them a better tool for sophisticated scoring applications.

Posted on Mon, Sep 12 2011 09:04
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

noldar12 wrote:
Note: one of the things I would wish for would be articulations where the bow is left on the string after the note is played.  A real player will often leave the bow on the string during very brief rests, as taking the bow off the string for a short period of time, and them putting it right back on the string is wasted motion.  As long as the bow does not move, no sound will result.

 

This is one of the reasons that I say a sample library will always be a compromise. What you say it true for the Bass, and sometimes for the Cello, but for Violin and Viola it is only true in the upper part of the bow, and only under very specific conditions. No player would ever leave the bow on the strings during a rest anywhere else in the bow, because as both Violin and Viola rely on gravity acting on the bow, as well as pressure (bass and cello rely much more on bw pressure), to leave the bow on the string would create a horrible sound.

I still maintain that sample libraries could be more detailed, but most of that detail would only matter to specialists, and because of that may not be worthwhile to the developers.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Mon, Sep 12 2011 09:07
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
muziksculp wrote:

Why didn't VSL expand the articulations of their Appassionata Strings ? 

Maybe VSL will eventually offer something like an Appassionata Strings Expander, that will make them a better tool for sophisticated scoring applications.

 

Now this i do agree with. The App strings sounds great, but are pretty useless on their own for writing music. At the very least I need non or more accurately poco vibrato patches. Having said that, this is really the only thing that is wrong with the regular Orchestral strings. There are no molto vibrato patches, so the sound, at high dynamic level, is often anemic to my ears.

I guess the Orchestral Strings is such an old library that the sample player it was created for couldn't have coped with all these options. However, they do need to be updated to meet current expectations in a modern string library.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Mon, Sep 12 2011 16:40
by noldar12
Joined on Thu, Dec 04 2008, Posts 582

DG, good points.  I tend to think more about lower strings than upper strings.  I also agree that for the most part the issue I raised probably does matter more to specialists, and is not really a viable economic option.  I tend to think that an instrumentalist is generally most aware of the limitations of sample libraries for his or her own main instrument.

DG, a humorous side note: during college days I did have to take violin fundamentals as part of the music major track I was first pursuing.  While I could play it somewhat, I tended to squash the tone of it something fierce as I was so used to all the pressure required for using a bass bow.  Cello, OTOH, I did fairly well with, as the muscle movements for cello and bass are virtually identical (as I play French bow on the bass, I did not have to make an adjustment going from German bass bow to French cello bow).

Posted on Mon, Sep 12 2011 16:56
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
noldar12 wrote:

DG, a humorous side note: during college days I did have to take violin fundamentals as part of the music major track I was first pursuing.  While I could play it somewhat, I tended to squash the tone of it something fierce as I was so used to all the pressure required for using a bass bow.  Cello, OTOH, I did fairly well with, as the muscle movements for cello and bass are virtually identical (as I play French bow on the bass, I did not have to make an adjustment going from German bass bow to French cello bow).

 

I have also noodled on the Cello from time to time, and it is exactly the opposite for me. Everything I play sounds beautiful and flautando. There is no hint of passion or guts anywhere. I suppose all instruments have their drawbacks to the player. On the Bass and Cell you have to work quite hard to make a big sound. On the Violin and Viola it's quite easy, but holding the dratted instrument up with that ridiculous left hand position is a real bore...!

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Mon, Sep 12 2011 17:52
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7412

[Note to myself: "Dratted" is a word. 8-) ...]

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Mon, Sep 12 2011 18:31
by noldar12
Joined on Thu, Dec 04 2008, Posts 582

DG, LOL on the left hand position on violin and viola... soooo true, and having that little finger resting on top of the bow.  Of course, it is exactly the reverse humor for violinists and violists having to learn cello and bass fundamentals.

Posted on Mon, Sep 12 2011 20:16
by Vincent M
Joined on Sat, Jul 02 2011, Posts 205
Sorry for that noob question, but what is that ''division'' technique? Thank you!
Posted on Mon, Sep 12 2011 21:27
by Shawn Gibson
Joined on Tue, Sep 23 2008, Toronto, Posts 187

Divisi = if you write 1 note, it goes to 1 player; 2 notes = 2 players etc.

Check out the Dimension Brass videos:)

Eternal Nube with a passion for all-things VSL.
Posted on Mon, Sep 12 2011 21:58
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7412

________________________________

Divisi

dividing, temporary separation

Origin: 1730–40; < Italian, plural of 'diviso' divided, past participle of 'dividere' to divide

Divisi usually indicates a temporary dividing, however; in music, a divisi is commonly followed by an A Due , a coming back together.


________________________________

HTH,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Mon, Sep 12 2011 22:29
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Posts 498

The official definition from the Sean dictionary-

Divisi: the bomb-diggity, the great divide, the awe and wonder of the orchestra, and finally... what VSL users are desparately begging for.

Note: 'bomb-diggity' is another term to be added to the Dietz dictionary. (These are the times that I think that musicians are like the nerdiest, dorkiest, corniest, and coolest people on the planet. lol)

-Sean

4 Pages123>»
You cannot post new threads in this forum.
You cannot reply to threads in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.