Dynamic layer disparity (any solutions or workarounds?)

[MikeShapiro]

Having used my beloved VSL Pro Cube on several projects, I find myself having troubles with the perceptible disparity between the f/ff dynamic layers and the softer ones. Whereas the transition from piano to mezo-forte sounds quite fluid, there's a huge jump in perceptible loudness when many instruments switch to their top velocity layer. It almost sounds like the mic perspective is much closer. As a result a lot of my cues sound like they're either very soft or VERY LOUD with no middle ground.

If there's one thing I love even more than complaining, it's finding a solution. So I thought I'd see if anyone else has had problems with this issue, and/or found a solution or workaround. Obviously lowering MIDI volume every time you change from mf to ff isn't a very practical solution.

I imagine one could write a utility that goes through all the samples on one's hard drive and destructively modifies the F/FF ones to be quieter, but that is a kludge of the lowest order. Does anyone have any better ideas?

Mike

[Ren_]

Hello,

I've experienced the behavior you described a few times as well. After a few tears wishing there would have been just one more velo layer, here's what I've found useful:

- If you're playing the parts, try adjusting the velocity response of your master controller. It's common to fire the ff layer when the mf would do it anyways, but inspiration uses to move the player to press harder than needed. I've found useful one s-shaped curve in my controller (Kurzweil PC8[H]. This is of course not applicable to scored or sequenced parts.

- This worked great on a few legato horn programs, probably applicable to others: I've created an artificial fourth layer by using the sample corresponding to the immediate higher neighbor key for the ff, and turning on the filter. This way, the sample sounds a bit duller by both the resampling operation and the filtering, good for a small set of velocities.

-René

[mikhail]

Mike,

What is your main sequencer ?
I'm working with Nuendo and it's pretty easy to find a workaround with the logical editor used as a real time input transformer.
Just program a few logical patches then save a template and you're done.
I can send you these patches/settings if you want (Actually I could write them down here but I'm far from my DAW at the time).

Michaël

[mathis]

Yes, I also wish more dynamic layers. Wait some time when we get more RAM, more HD, and finally more samples by VSL. They will come, I´m utterly convinced, but this takes time.

René can you explain a bit more what you did? I didn´t understand that.

[PaulR]

Mathis,

Empfingen Sie Ihr kleines Paket? Ich bin gerechtes Wundern. [:)]

Paul

[Romain P.]

in halion we can use a filter called "cutoff" , it can literally transform an FF sample in MF sample, but it's artificial...*


or you can also if you own the perf set, use the performance dynamics legato repetitions, i'll post an example soon to show you the power of this type of patch to do crescendo or diminuendo (you have 5 velocites in fact in that type of patch)

[Romain P.]

@mathis said:

Yes, I also wish more dynamic layers. Wait some time when we get more RAM, more HD, and finally more samples by VSL. They will come, I´m utterly convinced, but this takes time.

René can you explain a bit more what you did? I didn´t understand that.

some examples about the perf leg rep dynamics : (the two files are at 120 bpm)

http://annecywebtv.free.fr/ho4-rep-leg.mp3
http://annecywebtv.free.fr/v14-rep-leg.mp3

Of course with longer and slower lines more dynamic layers will be needed [:)]

[MikeShapiro]

@mikhail said:

Mike,

What is your main sequencer ?
I'm working with Nuendo and it's pretty easy to find a workaround with the logical editor used as a real time input transformer.
Just program a few logical patches then save a template and you're done.
I can send you these patches/settings if you want (Actually I could write them down here but I'm far from my DAW at the time).

Michaël

Thanks for the response! I'm using Logic. What you described sounds interesting, but I'm not sure I understand it exactly. You don't need to send any patches or other concrete data, but could you explain the concept in general?

[Ren_]

@Another User said:

René can you explain a bit more what you did? I didn´t understand that.

Sure. My goal was to create a four layer legato solo horn. To do it, I used the samples in 20 HO_PERF-LEGATO.gig from the Performance Set, but I think the procedure I used is very simple and it will work for any program.

The 20 HO_PERF-LEGATO.gig offers samples in p, mf and f, plus the 'filter' version of the same program. One alternative to solve the problem originally posted in this thread, is to use the filter versions and lower the cutoff for the f layer to create an artificial mf layer. However, the filtered and unfiltered f layer has the same sound consistence, so it's not really too much extremely that good [:)]

What I did is to create the fourth mf 'artificial' layer by using the f sample for the next note, downsampled. So, for instance for C4, I used:

1: HO_oV_nA_sus_p_C4.wav
2: HO_oV_nA_sus_mp_C#4 - downsampled.wav (there's no mp_C4 sample)
3: HO_oV_nA_sus_f_C#4 - downsampled - filtered.wav
4: HO_oV_nA_sus_f_C4.wav

So all four layers have different sound consistance (machine-gun chu chu), and the transition from mp to f is smoother. Here's a snippet:

horn4

Result is really good if you use high quality resampling and filtering components. The job can be easily batched, so it's not that hell of a work.

Hope this helps.
-René

[tonylombardi]

I basically used the filter method. I put a lowpass filter on the loudest samples with cutoff assigned to MIDI CC11. So whenever I need something between the mf and ff I lower the cutoff. It seems to work ok. I use Kontakt and I think the filter is only on the loudest sample, but I'm not positive.

[mikhail]

@mikhail said:

Mike,

What is your main sequencer ?
I'm working with Nuendo and it's pretty easy to find a workaround with the logical editor used as a real time input transformer.
Just program a few logical patches then save a template and you're done.
I can send you these patches/settings if you want (Actually I could write them down here but I'm far from my DAW at the time).

Michaël

Thanks for the response! I'm using Logic. What you described sounds interesting, but I'm not sure I understand it exactly. You don't need to send any patches or other concrete data, but could you explain the concept in general?


Unfortunately I know nearly nothing about Logic.
I'll try to explain how it works in Nuendo/CubaseSX.

For each MIDI track you create you get up to 4 insert FX (and up to 4 sends). They are dedicated to MIDI FX such as arpeggiator, compressor (for velocities), MIDI echo, and so on. Of course they work in real time on both the track and the incoming MIDI data from your keyboard.
Besides those usual MIDI FX there's a very powerful MIDI tool called Logical Editor.You can use it as an offline MIDI processor or as a real time insert or send FX (then you plug it in one of your MIDI track's insert or send slot ).
The basic principle of the Logical Editor is to write logical rules which will behave like a MIDI FX. You can then filter or transform the incoming MIDI data in real time or at a later stage during an offline process.

In your case you could state the following logical rules in Logical Editor:

If velocity is higher than or equal to 115 then lower MIDI volume by 20 (assuming the highest layer starts at velocity = 115)
AND
If velocity is less than 115 then set MIDI volume to xxx (the nominal value)

If you strike a note very hard the MIDI volume will be dropped down by 20 and if the following note is played softer MIDI volume will be brought back to the nominal value you have defined.
Of course this rule will work for a single melody because it affects the volume of every note played on a given MIDI channel.

Lots of different variables and conditions are available in the logical editor (if the rule above doesn't fit your needs you can find out other ones).

Don't forget you can have as many instances of the Logical Editor as MIDI tracks (and even more). And once you've found the suitable settings you just have to plug it in a slot and forget it.

I hope I'm not too confusing and I hope this helps !
Don't hesitate to mail me for further questions.

Michaël