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Tempo Changes causes audio pop with VEP slave instruments
Last post Wed, Nov 14 2012 by J111111, 21 replies.
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Posted on Wed, Sep 21 2011 09:03
by composermark
Joined on Sat, Sep 10 2011, Posts 20

Has anyone else noticed this issue?


My setup - using VEP as a slave - connected via gigabit LAN. Using Play instances.


Master computer - running Cubase 6.02.


Both computers PC Windows 7 64 bit. High spec.


In Cubase if the tempo changes while a note is playing, or even the release trail of such a note, I get an audio pop.


It would seem that some sort of tempo sync is necessary for the proper working of VEP. Some instruments behave differently depending on the tempo of your project.


Disabling this functionality would not be ideal - the fact that the slave is responding to more than just simple MIDI data is actually very useful. It's the raison d'etre I would say for VEP. Since otherwise simple MIDI over LAN would provide a more reliable setup - since the audio is dealt with on an exclusive channel via sound cards and cables.


Is there a workaround for this?

Posted on Wed, Sep 21 2011 09:20
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

The first thing to check is whether or not you have the same problem if you load the patches directly into Cubase. There should only (potentially) be a problem with tempo synced patches, which VSL doesn't have, so it may be a PLAY issue.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Wed, Sep 21 2011 16:28
by composermark
Joined on Sat, Sep 10 2011, Posts 20
DG wrote:

The first thing to check is whether or not you have the same problem if you load the patches directly into Cubase. There should only (potentially) be a problem with tempo synced patches, which VSL doesn't have, so it may be a PLAY issue.

DG


Well that was the first thing I tried to establish. It doesn't happen with the patches loaded directly in Cubase. And it happens even where the patch in the slave doesn't have any tempo synced information.

Posted on Wed, Sep 21 2011 19:41
by aptmusic
Joined on Fri, Nov 14 2008, Portland, Posts 239
I had this problem but assumed it was PLAY's fault. I ended up using real time export to remedy the situation, because offline bounce was resulting in pops. I wasn't using tempo mapped instruments though
Core i7 3930k - 64GB RAM - W7 Pro on 240GB Neutron SSD - RME HDSPe AIO - OCZ RevoDrive 120GB - Crucial RealSSD 256GB - 8 x HDD - Motif XS8 - Focal Solo 6 Be - Cubase 6 - Sibelius 6.2 - VE PRO - QL Spaces - Altiverb 6 - Hollywood Series - SC - SD2 - EWQL Pianos - MOR - Requiem Choir - VSL SE+ - Symphobia 1 and 2 - True Strike
Posted on Wed, Sep 21 2011 22:29
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

Hang on a sec. When PLAY was released it was stated that they only supported real time bounce/mixdown. Has that changed?

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Thu, Sep 22 2011 07:41
by composermark
Joined on Sat, Sep 10 2011, Posts 20
aptmusic wrote:
I had this problem but assumed it was PLAY's fault. I ended up using real time export to remedy the situation, because offline bounce was resulting in pops. I wasn't using tempo mapped instruments though

This issue is happening in real time though - I'm not exporting

Posted on Thu, Sep 22 2011 07:47
by composermark
Joined on Sat, Sep 10 2011, Posts 20
DG wrote:

Hang on a sec. When PLAY was released it was stated that they only supported real time bounce/mixdown. Has that changed?

DG

I've had no problems using offline bouncing. In fact I use the export function in Cubase to bounce offline multiple stems at the same time.

Officially I think you are right - Play does not recommend this. But as I'm delivering broadcast quality stems to clients okay, clearly Play is capable. It must depend on your hardware and the samples. I haven't tried this with VEPro of course as a slave. I would seriously doubt that would work. And I haven't tried it with the latest Eastwest Hollywood sample libraries, which do put extra strain on the system.

Anyway, this is off topic somewhat. Because my issue is about getting pops at tempo changes, regardless of any tempo mapping instruments being loaded. Sure I can live with it while composing and creating the balance in my mix, but when it comes to recording my stems, realtime or not, it is going to be an issue.

Posted on Thu, Sep 22 2011 08:32
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

 Fair enough. My only other question would be does it happen with any other sample player than PLAY?

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Thu, Sep 22 2011 08:51
by composermark
Joined on Sat, Sep 10 2011, Posts 20
DG wrote:

 Fair enough. My only other question would be does it happen with any other sample player than PLAY?


Unfortunately I don't have another one installed on my slave machine to test this. But it would be a logical test to see whether this is just a Play issue.

Not fully understanding how VEP works, but clearly it has to send a chunk of data to the slave to sync it. I was wondering if this had an impact.

However, I've just tried a tempo change in a clean Cubase project - using the same set of samples loaded in my slave. No pop. So I would surmise that this is neither a VEP or Play issue. What's different in this new Cubase project I wonder? Bit resolution is 24 instead of 32 floating point. Frame rate is 30 instead of 24.

Also of course I don't have loads of Midi Channels or other VSTi's loaded. But I was discounting that as an factor, because the problem occurs with just a single instrument playing, so I didn't think it would be a issue of strain upon the network connection or the CPU.

Posted on Thu, Sep 22 2011 09:32
by composermark
Joined on Sat, Sep 10 2011, Posts 20

It gets stranger

The issue only seems to happen some measures into a project. Changing tempo right at start of project (like measure 2 for example) doesn't cause pop. Doing so at measure 120 for instance, does.

Also I seem to be able to mitigate the issue by ramping the tempo change (even very quickly), rather than a jump. It also seems to depend on how big the tempo change is.

Posted on Thu, Sep 22 2011 20:50
by ddk
Joined on Sat, May 24 2003, Posts 57

I have had the same problem. I have just done a switch from VEP server to

VEP stand alone and I find Play and some Kontact patchs give me pops and clicks.

I think it is patches that are sending out tempo that is causing the pops. I have found

that I can get rid of the pops but I have to raise my buffer way up on my slave.

Try raising the buffer up does that get rid of the pops for you??

Posted on Tue, Sep 27 2011 14:08
by composermark
Joined on Sat, Sep 10 2011, Posts 20
Sorry I don't know how to do this beyond the 2 buffers. Can you explain more?
Posted on Tue, Sep 27 2011 16:51
by aptmusic
Joined on Fri, Nov 14 2008, Portland, Posts 239
When/where did PLAY state that it supported real-time bounce only, DG?
Core i7 3930k - 64GB RAM - W7 Pro on 240GB Neutron SSD - RME HDSPe AIO - OCZ RevoDrive 120GB - Crucial RealSSD 256GB - 8 x HDD - Motif XS8 - Focal Solo 6 Be - Cubase 6 - Sibelius 6.2 - VE PRO - QL Spaces - Altiverb 6 - Hollywood Series - SC - SD2 - EWQL Pianos - MOR - Requiem Choir - VSL SE+ - Symphobia 1 and 2 - True Strike
Posted on Tue, Sep 27 2011 18:52
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
aptmusic wrote:
When/where did PLAY state that it supported real-time bounce only, DG?

This was in the early days, before I deleted it from my system, and my life. Probably around the same time that Buck Rodgers was telling everyone that PLAY Pro was a much better Networking solution than VE Pro.  Wink

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Tue, Dec 13 2011 16:03
by Fred72
Joined on Thu, Jun 23 2011, Posts 4
Did anyone come up with any solutions or answers with this? It is happening to me right now. 100BPM tempo change and Play (HS) pops. If I remove the tempo change or slide the midi just past it it is fine.

Obmit
Posted on Thu, Apr 19 2012 11:49
by Catalin
Joined on Thu, Feb 20 2003, Ontario, Canada, Posts 51

Any word on that? I am experiencing this issue as well and it is quite bad!

Posted on Fri, Apr 20 2012 02:42
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1834

my [Cubsse 5.5.3] projects have extensive tempo changes... I conform the timeline to the music so even where there is a 'steady beat' there are many actual changes. I have not seen this, including with Play instances. Now, my usage of Play is pretty minimal.

I use Jumbo Frames, 9000 in the network settings. If yu have smaller frames you could try that.

MacBook Pro 16,1: 2.3 GHz 8-core i9
64GB 2667MHz DDR4
Mac OS 11.6.1
VE Pro 7.1056, Cubase Pro 11.0.0
Posted on Sat, Aug 11 2012 02:11
by gs_vsl
Joined on Sat, Jan 23 2010, Posts 48

I have the same issue, but with LASS loaded in Kontakt 5 inside VE Pro. During ramp tempo changes in Cubase, the audio sounds very distorted, almost like it is using the wrong sample rate.

Posted on Sat, Aug 11 2012 14:41
by Karel
Joined on Mon, Jan 19 2009, Belgium, Posts 2173

How does LASS behave when loaded directly in Cubase while ramping like this? I was never able to reproduce this problem here.

Karel Bassez
Software Engineer
Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Fri, Aug 24 2012 21:56
by taoyoyo
Joined on Sun, Jun 03 2012, Posts 3
I've had a similar problem with 'looping points' when using instances of NI's Maschine in VEP and piped through /slaved to Ableton Live.

If I have, say a 16 bar loop set in Live every time it reaches the beginning of a new loop the audio glitches for that first beat from the Maschines in VEP.

The only solution I've found is to set the VEP Plug-in instance latency set to 'None', which raises the CPU level in Ableton to about the same as if the Maschine instances were in Live (which defeats the point of using VSP really).

Is there possibly some sort of tempo/loop/sync issue here?

(Maschine's play nicely when directly inside Ableton Live)

Cheers,

Alan
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