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Natural Volume for tenor-trombone in MIR
Last post Sat, Nov 26 2011 by Dietz, 15 replies.
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Posted on Thu, Oct 06 2011 14:52
by doubleattack
Joined on Fri, Jul 09 2010, Leipzig, Germany, Posts 237
These are not the times for such a simple questions maybe, but this could be interesting for the upcoming MIR Pro too.
So I hope I don't disturb too much in these busy weeks!
I've noticed that the natural volume of the tenor-trombone (from dvd - brass 1 lib) is much louder compared to the other trombones of the family, like bass and alt trombone. So to say unnatural louder. :-) The loaded natural volume is -6.99 db, but it seems to me it should be maybe - 16.99 and than it fits. So my impression there is a little mistake in there? Or I'm wrong?
btw - the natural volume is one of the great features of MIR that teached me a lot about mixing - and arranging, specially for very rare instruments where it's hard to find enough experience with real instruments like heckelphon (I've had to write for a real one, so very inspiring and informativ again, what you get here with MIR). So that's why I would like to know, what's happen with the tenor-trombone. Thanks in advance!

Frank

Posted on Fri, Oct 07 2011 16:34
by Sami Boman
Joined on Wed, Mar 23 2005, Jyväskylä, Finland, Posts 206

I'm a bit curious about the natural volume altogether. How has the team come up with individual volumes of the instruments? Is it set with a trained professional ear or do you have some kind of documents of the original recordings which reveal how much normalization was used during them with each instrument?

Posted on Fri, Oct 07 2011 18:35
by doubleattack
Joined on Fri, Jul 09 2010, Leipzig, Germany, Posts 237
Sami Boman wrote:

I'm a bit curious about the natural volume altogether. How has the team come up with individual volumes of the instruments? Is it set with a trained professional ear or do you have some kind of documents of the original recordings which reveal how much normalization was used during them with each instrument?



For shure Dietz will answer exactly soon, right now I think the vsl-team is very busy.
AFAIK the recording datas of each instrument implemented in the instrument profils of MIR are scaling data (would not possible in this exactly way by ears). In the case of this trombone is quite obvious that it's way to loud - at least I think so. :-)

btw the natural volume is only one of the parameters of these instrument profils. Another great think is the direction profile. Really, these features has teached me a lot, they are v e r y helpful! After loading an instrument you don't have to touch a fader again - if you want a "real" balanced orchestra (working with the vsl-lib).

Posted on Sun, Oct 09 2011 15:18
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7883
Sami Boman wrote:

I'm a bit curious about the natural volume altogether. How has the team come up with individual volumes of the instruments? Is it set with a trained professional ear or do you have some kind of documents of the original recordings which reveal how much normalization was used during them with each instrument?

We have indeed made extensive measurements from a considerable number of instruments for MIR's "Directivity Profiles", so we have a list of levels for different dyncamics and playing styles. But in the end, all Natural Volume settings were fine-tuned manually by The Boss (Herb Tucmandl) himself. ;-)

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Sun, Oct 09 2011 15:19
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7883
doubleattack wrote:
[...]

I've noticed that the natural volume of the tenor-trombone (from dvd - brass 1 lib) is much louder compared to the other trombones of the family, like bass and alt trombone. So to say unnatural louder. :-) The loaded natural volume is -6.99 db, but it seems to me it should be maybe - 16.99 and than it fits. So my impression there is a little mistake in there? Or I'm wrong? [...]


Frank

Thanks for reporting, Frank. We'll look into it ASAP!

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Mon, Oct 10 2011 10:15
by suon
Joined on Sat, Sep 04 2010, Posts 106

I wanted to second that I felt the trombone was surprisingly loud when I briefly tried MIR SE.

In general, does "natural volume" setting also adjust how the entire dynamic range maps to loudness?  Or does it just adjust only a fixed gain on the volume of that entire instrument?

Best Regards,

~Shawn

Posted on Mon, Oct 10 2011 10:34
by VSL
Joined on Tue, Dec 02 2014, Posts
0
Very interesting question!!!
Posted on Mon, Oct 10 2011 11:34
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7883
suon wrote:

I wanted to second that I felt the trombone was surprisingly loud when I briefly tried MIR SE.

In general, does "natural volume" setting also adjust how the entire dynamic range maps to loudness?  Or does it just adjust only a fixed gain on the volume of that entire instrument?

Best Regards,

~Shawn

The dynamic range of a single instrument is consistent within its mapping inside Vienna Instrument already - that's nothing MIR has to take care for.

Natural Volume is "just" a volume setting that allows for the creation of any kind of orchestral arrangement in a MIR Venue - with the volumes of all Vienna Instruments aready set to a meaningful basic value in relation to each other. Of course, this also means that many instruments are set to a seemingly low basic value, but you have to make up lots of headroom for those _really_ loud instruments like Tamtams etc. If you don't use loud instruments in a specific arrangement, you can always group all instruments and bring their volumes up to a more convenient range, or you simply push the master fader. MIR's signal path is 32 bit floating point throughout the whole engine, so the result will be more or less the same. Just make sure that you don't overload the output itself.

... we'll look into that Tenor Trombone settings ASAP.

HTH,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Tue, Oct 11 2011 01:31
by doubleattack
Joined on Fri, Jul 09 2010, Leipzig, Germany, Posts 237
Dietz wrote:
doubleattack wrote:
[...]

I've noticed that the natural volume of the tenor-trombone (from dvd - brass 1 lib) is much louder compared to the other trombones of the family, like bass and alt trombone. So to say unnatural louder. :-) The loaded natural volume is -6.99 db, but it seems to me it should be maybe - 16.99 and than it fits. So my impression there is a little mistake in there? Or I'm wrong? [...]


Frank

Thanks for reporting, Frank. We'll look into it ASAP!



Thank you very much! I know it's quite untimeliness right now, so no reason to come in a rush for peanuts. I think everybody here is much more waiting for MIR Pro :-) !!!
Best Frank
Posted on Mon, Oct 31 2011 17:29
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7883

Before I forget:

I tested the Tenor Trombone with its Natural Volume settings, and I can't find anything wrong there ...

The value is -7 dB, and this level fits perfectly, I dare to say - also in comparison with the Tenor Trombone Ensemble, or the C-Trumpet, for example.

You  are right that the Bass Trombone is set to a slightly lower Natural Level, but this is not an error. The instrument needs more air to achieve at the same level as its higher-pitched brother, so this difference seems to be quite natural (if you allow for the pun ;-) ...)

I know that it is hard to fit all needs and tastes, but in the end, a different volume setting is always just a mouse-click away. :-)

Kind regards,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Mon, Oct 31 2011 18:23
by doubleattack
Joined on Fri, Jul 09 2010, Leipzig, Germany, Posts 237
Thanks for replay! - So it's good to know that the startpoint is right, and yes, for musical reasons I can move the fader of course... :-) Seems to me, MIR pro almost ready to go, didn't expect this answer now...Thanks again!

Frank
Posted on Sat, Nov 26 2011 11:45
by Sami Boman
Joined on Wed, Mar 23 2005, Jyväskylä, Finland, Posts 206

Have had MIR PRO for a couple of days now and I'm extremely excited about this wonderful tool. Although I'm having the same kind of problem with the tenor trombone. It sounds overwhelmingly loud compared to other brass instruments when using the natural volume setting. It absolutely runs over all the other brass combined. Though I think the tenor trombone fits perfectly with the other instrument groups so from my point of view the problem is with all the other brass. They are too quiet. When all the instrument groups (except percussion) are playing in ff the brass section is almost inaudible.

I managed to dodge the problem inside the brass group by loading the instrument profile of alto trombone for tenor trombone and raising the volume setting from -13.5dB (alto trombones natural volume) to tenor trombones natural volume of -7.00dB. This way the tenor trombone is much more quiet than with the same volume setting on it's own instrument profile and fit's much better with the other brass. Although this way the entire brass group is too silent compared to  the other instrument groups and has to be "boosted" pretty much. I think, when using the natural volume settings, the brass group starts to sound somewhat right when pushed about 12dB's louder than the other other groups.

I'm using the special edition & SE PLUS full libraries with logic pro 8. I have all the different instrument groups on their own instances of VE PRO 5 and the volume settings of all the master busses and the corresponding tracks in Logic are set to the same level with each other. I don't know if I have some setting on or off that quiets the brass group (except the tenor trombone) down or what, but I think the balance between these instruments is pretty weird.

Posted on Sat, Nov 26 2011 13:29
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7883

Well - like mentioned before: Natural Volume is meant to be a generalized starting point, and its values aren't written in stone. (Sidenote: This is about the same problem I encounter when doing any kind of  "Mixing Presets". Every arrangement actually asks for specific, individual solutions, as all settings depend on the context es well as on personal taste.)

... as a matter of fact, we have discussed the option to allow fo user-defined default volumes in addition to the Natural Volume settings (or replacing them). Maybe this is a feature that will be included in a later version of MIR Pro.

But anyway - thanks for all the interesting input!

Kind regards,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Sat, Nov 26 2011 14:06
by Sami Boman
Joined on Wed, Mar 23 2005, Jyväskylä, Finland, Posts 206

I hope you won't replace the natural volume settings with anything, they are indeed a veryhelpful starting point, but in addition user-defined default volumes sound like an excellent idea.

Posted on Sat, Nov 26 2011 14:50
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7883

*takes note* ... ;-)

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
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