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How VSL treat their customers!
Last post Wed, Jul 04 2012 by Cyril Blanc, 73 replies.
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Posted on Wed, Jan 25 2012 20:49
by dagmarpiano
Joined on Thu, Feb 14 2008, Merseyside, UK, Posts 152

Sean - you're guilty of speed reading. The problem isn't exactly the dongles, it's VSL's lack of warning about the very high replacement costs, and their 2 year warranty, which they don't make clear.

VSL just need to tell people more clearly that's all. It's not a dongle moan.

18-core iMac Pro | Vienna MIR | 16" M1 MacBook Pro

Trailer music publisher: https://gothic-storm.com
Posted on Wed, Jan 25 2012 21:45
by steff3
Joined on Thu, Nov 13 2003, Posts 268

I think most of us agree with you, that you have the right to protect your property. but, does that right include to take property from others away just to prove that you want to protect your property? 

for me, as a user a protection theme is good, if it does not bring additional costs, does not cause trouble and if I am do not have to take responsibility for malfunctioning of the copy protection. 

for the syncrosoft key in combination with VSL it is the opposite for all three aspects. Wow. So, as a honest user you have to take over responsibility for all the bad things that can happen - just because the world is not ideal for software developers and sound designers. If the copy protection is not as effective to have a reasonable replace policy for honest customers, My personal feeling is - there is something wromg with this system. (now, one can discussion what is reasonable, but, just count your licenses and multiply it by 20 and you can decide for yourself)

I also cannot see that the whole industrie is moving in that direction. Waves, Logic, Korg and Yellowtools got ride of a dongle. So do SPL, Brainworks etc, with Plugin Alliance. also PSP got rid off the dongle. If you refering to the Steinberg surroundings, ok, there you might be correct, but that is far from the whole industry IMHO.

The non-communication is just ... well, normally in such situation silence does not do too much good. we will see were this leads.

I just prdered a new dongle, the old one did not show any symptoms ... well, maybe Greempeace should send Steinberg and VSL some document for really wasteful usage of resources and energy due to such policies.

best

Posted on Wed, Jan 25 2012 22:36
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Posts 499
dagmarpiano wrote:
Sean - you're guilty of speed reading. The problem isn't exactly the dongles, it's VSL's lack of warning...

I can appreciate the warning point completely. I prefer effective policy and to me, open, honest, and as informative as possible are the way to go. So VSL clarifying something in anyway that improves communication about dongles is a good thing to me. It wasn't so much me speed reading but I was referring to the statements of "they need to rethink strategy" or that it's "disturbing" that they haven't replied. To me, this is a relevant issue, but I think it's being dramatized just slightly. I also like to voice the opinion that "I don't think VSL will reply or necessarily should feel obligated to" in order to prevent a 30 page thread just about VSL not replying... I tend to find such threads unproductive. If this thread were more about actual suggestions that help VSL and users- I'm all for it. I'm not any sort of moderator obviously, I just think VSL has some validity with dongles and as they won't post their position... I just offer another friendly viewpoint.

-Sean

Posted on Sat, Jan 28 2012 09:18
by cato
Joined on Tue, Jun 30 2009, Posts 3
Hoping someone can help me with this - I have a VSL key that stores my licences and I want to either make a backup on another key (or set of keys), or register them with Steinberg so that I can retrieve them easily should I lose or break my VSL key.


I plan on buying two or three Steinberg keys as I need to have one for each VEPro slave computer I want to set up, is it just a case of copying the licences I have on my current VSL using the eLicenser software to the new Steinberg keys to do that? And if I do that, surely I'll have copies of all my licences in case one of my keys break right? Or am I missing something with how this all works?


I've registered my VSL key at MySteinberg (it only seems to register the 'STEINBERG KEYS/SOFT-ELICENSER'), but it says 'Currently there are no product licenses on this key' which I'm assuming means I need to register my licences somehow right?


Any advice would be great, as I want to avoid those hefty fines for losing my licences as well.


Thanks



Cato
Posted on Sat, Jan 28 2012 09:56
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
  1. Make sure your keys with the VSL licences on are registered here at the VSL Website.
  2. Make sure your keys with the licences on are less than 2 years old
  3. Make sure you have insurance that covers software licences, should the key get stolen

This should cover all eventualities.

BTW you can't copy licences; you can only transfer them

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
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ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Sat, Jun 30 2012 19:00
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2723

Hi Cesare,

What VSL product do you own ?

They did charge you 1500euro for a broken dongle !!!!

Take a lawyer, this is not legal in most of the countries !

I am with you, because with all the libs I own, the bill could be the same !

MacBook Pro 2019 16" + 2 x Odisseey G9 49" Big Sur

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd

Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series, Many Synchronised libs
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 2, Art Conductor, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Sat, Jun 30 2012 19:11
by mschmitt
Joined on Mon, Jan 01 2007, Posts 154
Christian Marcussen wrote:

I too would be furious if I had to go through all the above and if I understand correctly - pay €20 per licence. Furious. 

When did the fee change to €20 per license? A few years ago I lost my USB dongle during a move. It just had the licenses for SE and SE+. I bought a new dongle and emailed VSL asking them to send my new licenses. They told me they don't have anyway to replace lost licenses, but out of the goodness of their hearts they would sell me new licenses for $500! This was half of the retail price. I tore my entire house apart and luckily after over a week found my dongle and it now never leaves my studio.
I think VSL just makes up their replacement policies as they go, and it's because of this BS that I haven't bought the cube yet. And, since it doesn’t look like they are going to be changing their replacement policy, I'm starting to look at other companies products.

Full Cube and lots of other stuff
Posted on Sun, Jul 01 2012 07:23
by cesare.italy
Joined on Thu, Feb 27 2003, Posts 89
Cyril wrote:

Hi Cesare,

What VSL product do you own ?

They did charge you 1500euro for a broken dongle !!!!

Take a lawyer, this is not legal in most of the countries !

I am with you, because with all the libs I own, the bill could be the same !

It wasn't me it was dagmarpiano. I guess he probably owns (well... "owned"...or better "owns but cannot use") a lot of download librairies (he had 64 licenses in total). If you were to pay 20 euros per license, download licenses will make the bill explode! 20 euros is almost the original download-instrument price.

I am counting: with 8 licenses my bill would be around 200/250 euros once my dongle will die. Another hundreds of euros for not being prevented from using a software that I have already have payed for. Not a new version, not an update, the exact same one! And I know that the dongle will brake (mine has got a small crack already). All devices produced now days have a planned life-cycle (it's called planned obsolecence).

It incredible! This license system is just a very, very well planned policy to constantly get money from costumers by otherwise threatening them that they will not being able to use the products they've bought. It has got nothing to do with copy protection or helping users or bla bla bla, it is just a form of indirect tax that sooner or later every user ends up payng, unless he/she keeps the dongle in a vault.

I keep wondering how I ended up spending thousands of euros (months of wage!!!) to find myself in this outrageous policy. I was 26 when I bought my first Vienna Library and I got it with the money I save from my PhD fellowship. I was soo excited when it arrived, now I so regret it! Ok, it has been a lesson of life: now I am am extremely careful, before buying software, that it does not involve the use of a dongle. But you can never know all the conditions. In the case of Vienna they simply do not inform people. I just feel scammed.

Cesare

Posted on Sun, Jul 01 2012 08:15
by Mike B Studios
Joined on Thu, Feb 16 2012, Hollywood, CA, Posts 411
Cesare.magri,

While Dagmarpiano did open this thread, he never said he had 64 licenses. He had only 2.
Also, he still owns and can use those licenses because they were replaced, way back on page 1.
January 3, 2012.

For the record, I agree, this policy should be rethought, or explained by VSL.
Posted on Sun, Jul 01 2012 08:31
by cesare.italy
Joined on Thu, Feb 27 2003, Posts 89

Mike, you are right it was andyjh who owns 64 licenses, I mixed the names. But imagine that you have 60 licenses on your key like he does/did. 60*20 = 1200 plus the price of a new key, plus the secured shipping etc. It's a month wage to replace a dongle which broke! It's not going on holidays because of a policy that you could not have known about because nobody informed you, it is not written anywhere. It is arbitrary and scary. It is like one month of morgage, that you have to pay just because otherwise you won't be put in the condition of using the licenses your already own. And note that the new product line (the many download instruments, the fragmented SE, which alone can include a dozen of license, i.e. around 300 euros of replacements in case of dongle failure) seems to go torward users having more and more licenses stored on their keys.

This is simply not fair.

Cesare

Posted on Sun, Jul 01 2012 09:02
by Mike B Studios
Joined on Thu, Feb 16 2012, Hollywood, CA, Posts 411
Agreed... Not fair at all.

And it gets worse, if your key is lost or stolen and you report this to VSL,
they will (KILL) those licenses, making them unusable for you or anyone else...
But they will not issue new ones.

Killing the lost licenses is great, but then, why not replace them???
Posted on Sun, Jul 01 2012 12:10
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2723
cesare.magri wrote:

This is simply not fair.

Cesare

Yes, I was going to buy Vienna Suite, I will wait until they find a solution 

MacBook Pro 2019 16" + 2 x Odisseey G9 49" Big Sur

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd

Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series, Many Synchronised libs
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 2, Art Conductor, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Mon, Jul 02 2012 15:34
by Stefan
Joined on Tue, Oct 10 2006, Posts 524

Dear All,


We use the licensing and copy protection system of eLicenser (www.elicenser.net, owned by
Steinberg/Yamaha), which is also being used successfully by other companies in our industry, such as Steinberg or Arturia.


eLicenser
USB keys, such as our ViennaKey, have a two year warranty. This means that if a
key breaks within the warranty period without extraneous cause, the user gets a
new ViennaKey and the new license(s) free of charge. That's why we recommend to
renew your eLicenser USB key every two years to be protected against malfunction.

If a user
damaged the key, or if the warranty has expired, the user will of course have
to pay for a new ViennaKey. Also, as mentioned by some users here in this
thread, we have to charge a handling fee for the replacement license (EUR 20
per contained license). This is necessary as we ourselves also have to pay
eLicenser for every replacement license we issue. As this was asked in this
thread as well, our DVD Collections, e.g., Woodwinds I, consists of one
license, no matter if you have the Standard Library or the Full Library (=Standard and Extended Library).

In case a
lot of licenses are stored on a broken key, we will try to find a solution with the customer on a case by case basis.


I’d also
like to emphasize that with eLicenser it is currently NOT possible to disable a
license via remote. Disabling licenses via remote is not only a technical
issue, but also a legal one, as it's not clear if we or eLicenser have the right to disable licenses.

The situations regarding a lost or broken ViennaKey are also explained in our Terms of License (§5 and §6) which every user has accepted when installing our software.


Many of our
professional users don't have internet access on their audio workstations, in
order to be protected against viruses and/or unauthorized data access, so we
need to use a copy protection system that also works offline. However, this
also means that whoever steals or finds a lost key can use the contained
license(s) without any restrictions, if he or she also has access to the samples, e.g., from a friend.


I hope you
can see and understand that we’re not trying to fool our users. But we HAVE to
prevent possible fraud if we want to keep this company alive. This includes
that it is not possible to replace licenses for free if a user has lost (or
claims to have lost) his key, and also that we cannot discuss some specific
issues publicly in our forum as we cannot provide instructions on how to best
outwit our copy protection system to steal licenses or, in other words, “organize a second set of licenses for a friend”.


Best,

Stefan

Stefan Steinbauer
Sales Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Mon, Jul 02 2012 16:19
by cesare.italy
Joined on Thu, Feb 27 2003, Posts 89
Stefan wrote:

eLicenser
USB keys, such as our ViennaKey, have a two year warranty. This means that if a
key breaks within the warranty period without extraneous cause, the user gets a
new ViennaKey and the new license(s) free of charge. That's why we recommend to
renew your eLicenser USB key every two years to be protected against malfunction.

Where exactly is this well explained on the website? I don't mean on some lost post in some part of the forum, I mean it clear on the Vienna Key page.

Stefan wrote:

In case a
lot of licenses are stored on a broken key, we will try to find a solution with the customer on a case by case basis.

Why can't there be a fixed table that says X licenses on the broken key = Y euros to be payed? Users have to return broken keys, so there is no chance that "friends" use it.

Stefan wrote:

I’d also
like to emphasize that with eLicenser it is currently NOT possible to disable a
license via remote. Disabling licenses via remote is not only a technical
issue, but also a legal one, as it's not clear if we or eLicenser have the right to disable licenses.

Can't you solve this point?

Stefan wrote:

The situations regarding a lost or broken ViennaKey are also explained in our Terms of License (§5 and §6) which every user has accepted when installing our software.

Hey, it looks like our posts are achieving something. It is extremely generic and confused information but it is at least a bit of information. In the Terms and Conditions I got when purchasing the library there was simply ABSOLUTELY NOTHING on this topic.

Stefan wrote:

Many of our
professional users don't have internet access on their audio workstations, in
order to be protected against viruses and/or unauthorized data access, so we
need to use a copy protection system that also works offline. However, this
also means that whoever steals or finds a lost key can use the contained
license(s) without any restrictions, if he or she also has access to the samples, e.g., from a friend.

This is YOUR choice of copy protection and does not need to be like that. You choose a copy protection system of this kind which puts ALL the preassure (loss, damage, stolen) on the costumers. It is a CHOICE don't make it sound as something unavoidable. Change licesing system if you see it does not work. You can think of proposing and implementing several options, for those who are connected. It is by far NOT impossible.

It is also incredible that with the massive amount of torrent going on (and the key has already been broken), your main concern is that we are dishonest and want to spread licenses among our friends. First of all, if I wanted to find these or other libraries illegally, I would have no problem doing it. Second my friends would not even now what to do with this software. We, your costumers, BOUGHT this products to support this industry, you and the musical industry, but honesly you are making me regret this decision. This is a true paradox!

As a costumer the approach of Vienna to this problem is simply extremely frustrating. No real detailed information and no action of any sort.

Cesare

Posted on Mon, Jul 02 2012 16:33
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2723
Stefan wrote:

Many of our
professional users don't have internet access on their audio workstations, in
order to be protected against viruses and/or unauthorized data access, so we
need to use a copy protection system that also works offline. However, this
also means that whoever steals or finds a lost key can use the contained
license(s) without any restrictions, if he or she also has access to the samples, e.g., from a friend.

Hello Stefan,

I dont think that this is a good arguement, I am sure that we could plug your elicenser key every 4 month to have it checked, you have to connect to upgrade VI pro and VE pro every so often. 

It is not the user that has already spend a lot of euro to buy your product that should have to pay the cost of  the copy protection

For user that have a lot of downloaded instruments you should find a solution, so there multiple license goes to one licence, one for the brass, one for the winds

How will it cost me if my key get stolen  ? I have 99 % of the downloaded instruments !!!!!!!

Anyway your license  is agains European laws ! 

You must find a solution 

Best

Cyril

MacBook Pro 2019 16" + 2 x Odisseey G9 49" Big Sur

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd

Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series, Many Synchronised libs
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 2, Art Conductor, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Mon, Jul 02 2012 19:47
by Mike B Studios
Joined on Thu, Feb 16 2012, Hollywood, CA, Posts 411
Stefan wrote:

I’d also
like to emphasize that with eLicenser it is currently NOT possible to disable a
license via remote. Disabling licenses via remote is not only a technical
issue, but also a legal one, as it's not clear if we or eLicenser have the right to disable licenses.

The situations regarding a lost or broken ViennaKey are also explained in our Terms of License (§5 and §6) which every user has accepted when installing our software.

Stefan, forgive me for piling on, but your terms of license #6 states:

6. Loss of the ViennaKey


Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH assumes no liability or obligation if the ViennaKey or any other eLicenser USB protection device holding one or more Vienna Symphonic Library Licenses is mislaid as a result of loss, theft or otherwise. Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH reserves the right to block its Licenses saved on the lost ViennaKey or on any other lost USB eLicenser upon being notified by the registered user of the loss. Lost or stolen Licenses cannot be replaced free of charge by Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH.

So, as ENGLISH is my first language, what am I missing?

  1. If you reserve the right to block lost or stolen licenses, how are you able to do this if not remotely?
  2. Are you saying that blocking licenses does not prevent the lost or stolen key from being used?
  3. Then what exactly does blocking a license do?
Posted on Mon, Jul 02 2012 20:16
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Posts 499
cesare.italy wrote:

Stefan wrote:

Many of our
professional users don't have internet access on their audio workstations, in
order to be protected against viruses and/or unauthorized data access, so we
need to use a copy protection system that also works offline. However, this
also means that whoever steals or finds a lost key can use the contained
license(s) without any restrictions, if he or she also has access to the samples, e.g., from a friend.

This is YOUR choice of copy protection and does not need to be like that. You choose a copy protection system of this kind which puts ALL the preassure (loss, damage, stolen) on the costumers. It is a CHOICE don't make it sound as something unavoidable. Change licesing system if you see it does not work. You can think of proposing and implementing several options, for those who are connected. It is by far NOT impossible.

I shall provide everyone here with an education...

1. some people steal software

2. some companies try to prevent it

3. the good people suffer

It is completely reasonable that they have every right to protect their property, hardwork, and potential future jobs they've invested in, even if it inconveniences people. After all, you don't have to buy it, use it, or complain about it when the initial choices leading to such disatisfaction was the consumers (yours) to make, not the company we buy from. And if you still want to blame VSL anyway, to put the burden of responsibility on the party making the first choice causing this problem to begin with, you cannot reasonably attribute such blame to VSL when considering the fact that the real problem is theft, not counter-measures. People who defend themselves against an attacker may not make perfectly thought out counter-actions and may cause some problems in doing so. I still believe if blame is assigned, it is only appropriate to assign it to the initial attacker. I believe the people complaining about VSL are... less than reasonable (to put it kindly).

1. you have a 2 year renewal option, outlined clearly or not, use it or deal with your lack of careful consideration of where you invest your money and how you protect those purchases.

2. VSL isn't to blame for replacement license fees when they are not the one responsible for those fees existence (see Steinburg and pirates first to assign your blame).

3. VSL, please consider making some sort of "License protection: simplified" page in the User Area. This way people will have a clear place to go to protect themselves, not to blame you as you aren't responsible for this problem, and so you will yet do one more thing as best as the industry gets (that is, explaining for people how and what they should do to protect themselves from... themselves) Angel

-Sean

Tags: license
Posted on Tue, Jul 03 2012 04:39
by Mike B Studios
Joined on Thu, Feb 16 2012, Hollywood, CA, Posts 411

Iscorefilm,

I suspect you assume people actually read license agreements, before making their purchase.

While recommended, it could just be bad for business.

Could scare VSL customers away.

I particularly like the part about you and only you, may use your Vienna Symphonic Library.

  • No, your music business partners may not use your VSL.
  • No, your children may not use your VSL.
  • No, your best friend who happens to be a better keyboardist than you, may not touch your VSL.

Worst case scenario you've spent 14,000 US dollars on your Vienna Instruments, and only you may use them.

So I know this studio owner, we'll call him Mike.

He has a studio neighbor, we'll call him Steve.

One day Steve drops by while Mike is fooling around with VSL.

Steve, having great great ears, likes what he hears.

Mike tells him it's software.

Steve asks if he may give it a try?

What would you do?

  • Tell Stevie Wonder NO, sorry, can't?
  • Or ask him to have a seat, while you enjoy listening to him explore?

I know what Mike did...

Iscorefilm, I don't know which came first: Stealing Software or Unreasonable License Agreements.

But I do hope you score alone, as no one else is allowed to touch your VSL.

Posted on Tue, Jul 03 2012 05:28
by cesare.italy
Joined on Thu, Feb 27 2003, Posts 89

Dear iscorefilm,

I would agree with you if  Vienna had written a clear policy of what using the key meant:

- wrote CLEARLY about the dongle warranty problem (where is it written on their website???)

- wrote CLEARLY how much restoring each license will cost once the dongle brakes

- wrote CLEARLY how much restoring each license will cost once the dongle is lost/stolen

i.e. if it had been a clear and responsible company. But they now that if any of us had read those clear condition more than half of us, and definitely most non-pros would NOT have bought their product. And look at their offer right now, they keep speaking about professionals, but they target more and more non professional with the SE and dowload offer which is becoming their primary market.

That is why the do not write any of this information. On the original Terms and Conditions there was no point 5 or 6, there was simply NOTHING no information of any sort. These points have been added because of our complaining posts, I have the email in which they admit that. Despite this, points 5 adn 6 are everything but clear! I can send you a copy of the origibal terms and conditions if you do not believe this. They are simply making up the rules as they go and they always make them to the costumer disadvantage. They know that none of us has the time or willingness to take a lawyer, but this behavior is reallly at the edge of correctness.

Cesare

Posted on Tue, Jul 03 2012 06:25
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2723

It is month we are asking VSL to find a solution, but it is like talking to deaf and dumb.

I just ask to my insurance company to add the "juridical aid" to my house insurance Crying

I wish I will not have to use it, but now I am covered  !

Best

Cyril

MacBook Pro 2019 16" + 2 x Odisseey G9 49" Big Sur

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd

Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series, Many Synchronised libs
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 2, Art Conductor, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
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