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Will there be some "Dimension Strings" ?
Last post Tue, Sep 18 2012 by DaveTubaKing, 21 replies.
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Posted on Wed, Apr 25 2012 17:49
by markbatuer
Joined on Tue, Nov 15 2011, Posts 22
Hi Paul and guys in VSL,

I'm a Dimension Brass user and a big fan of VSL. I like this library so much. As we see in these two years almost all the major sound-design companies are working on strings library, such as EW, LASS2.0, Cinematicstrings 2.0, 8Dio Adagio Violin(they will release cellos violas basses in this year), Sonokinetic....Those libraries are more and more realistic and easy to use. Especially the legato techniques are so improved these years. VSL is awesome. But to be honest, VSL's strings library could not always sound so great in some way. So after years, will there be a new library such as Dimension Brass in near future? We are all looking forward to hear some big news from VSL. Thanks for you guys hard working.
Posted on Wed, Apr 25 2012 20:41
by andyjh
Joined on Wed, Dec 15 2010, Posts 600

 I don't think the existance of Dimension Strings is in doubt,  it's just a case of when it is to be released.

Posted on Wed, Apr 25 2012 23:39
by muziksculp
Joined on Fri, Oct 03 2003, U.S.A., Posts 448

Are you expecting a serious, and informative answer from VSL regarding new Strings Libraries ? 

Good Luck !    Big Smile

Posted on Thu, Apr 26 2012 00:10
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5683

Dimension Brass is a genuinely revolutionary way to record brass samples and deal with the biggest problem in orchestra sampling - solo vs. ensemble.   It allows you to simply concentrate on the music, exactly like writing down a score, instead of worrying about phasing, solo timbre vs. ensemble, which trumpet am I on? is this 3 horns or 4?  etc.  etc.  You can just freely use all four players, or two, or three, or solo.

The current string libraries of VSL already are superior to other libraries because of the wide ranging articulations across Solo, Chamber, Orchestral and Appassionata, the playing/recording quality, and the methodical organization of all samples in a uniform manner within the elegant structure of VE.  However,  I would say it is very likely the same great approach of Dimension Brass could be used with strings to change the way divisi and ensemble are done and to add even more espressivo variations.  It would certainly make VSL obliterate all string library challengers the day it was released, because with MIR, the VE interface is so superior to others for orchestral purposes. 

Posted on Thu, Apr 26 2012 20:58
by Martinz
Joined on Wed, Nov 26 2008, Stockholm, Posts 47

I think that's the most important update for VSL right now. The strings samples are great, but I think they sometimes lack the depth that live recordings have. It's sometimes sounds too perfect. With dimension strings you could change just with a slider how amateurish the string players are playing together by using the humanize functions in VI PRO for each individual player. And there would be no need for chamber strings or solo strings - just add as many players you need. I'd pay a lot for a library like that. 

And if VSL will find a method to handle velocity xfade for each player without "xfading" (so that there are not 2 samples played simultaneously) there would be hard for other string libraries to compete for long. I have no idea how it could be made, but the limitation is disturbing every time I want any kind of crescendo/diminuendo with legato patches.

It would be a huge amount of samples… If it's the size of 1 solo strings instrument per player and there are a maximum of 16 violin I, 14 violin II, 12 violas, 10 celli, 8 double basses, it would require like 900 gb on your HD. How much ram is that?

www.martinz.se
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Posted on Thu, Apr 26 2012 21:09
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
Martinz wrote:

I think that's the most important update for VSL right now. The strings samples are great, but I think they sometimes lack the depth that live recordings have. It's sometimes sounds too perfect. With dimension strings you could change just with a slider how amateurish the string players are playing together by using the humanize functions in VI PRO for each individual player. And there would be no need for chamber strings or solo strings - just add as many players you need. I'd pay a lot for a library like that. 

And if VSL will find a method to handle velocity xfade for each player without "xfading" (so that there are not 2 samples played simultaneously) there would be hard for other string libraries to compete for long. I have no idea how it could be made, but the limitation is disturbing every time I want any kind of crescendo/diminuendo with legato patches.

It would be a huge amount of samples… If it's the size of 1 solo strings instrument per player and there are a maximum of 16 violin I, 14 violin II, 12 violas, 10 cellis, 8 double basses, it would require like 900 gb on your HD. How much ram is that?

 

The biggest problem with that is that it's already been tried by Audio Impressions. That pretty much proved that 16x1 players sounds nothing like 16 players all playing at the same time.

DG

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Posted on Fri, Apr 27 2012 21:22
by Martinz
Joined on Wed, Nov 26 2008, Stockholm, Posts 47

Ah, didn't know about those. But I know for sure that it cannot be made with the same player. I have tried myself to record a string passage with just one violin player dubbed 10 times… it sounds wrong.

If you combine the power of MIR and dimension strings with unique players (with their personal way of playing and instrument sound), I can't see how it wouldn't be the best virtual strings ever.

www.martinz.se
Setup:
Logic Pro X
Master:
Mac Pro 5,1 12 core 2x3,46 GHz 96 GB ram Lynx E44
Slave:
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Posted on Fri, Apr 27 2012 21:59
by noldar12
Joined on Thu, Dec 04 2008, Posts 582

Martinz, perhaps the biggest problem is that 16 individual players, even if layered, do not at all have the same dynamic as a string section sound.  In a section, not only do you have the minor differences between the players, which probably could be simulated, but more importantly, the interaction between the players, as each player adjusts to what the other is doing - not to mention more specifically following the directions of the section leader (In general, the section leader has the final say in determining the bowings and fingerings that the members of the section will follow).  It is that dynamic interaction between the players as notes are played that individual layering cannot simulate.

Then, one gets into the problem of the number of MIDI tracks that would have to be created, worked with, etc.  Both brass and woodwind sections are much smaller, and therefore easier to deal with than the far larger string sections.  I would almost wonder if a Dimension Woodwinds would precede a Dimension Strings for that very reason.

Posted on Sat, Apr 28 2012 18:06
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5683

 Well, Herb explained that with orchestral woodwinds there is not so much of an issue of needing the Dimension approach.  I agree with that.  YOu can hear it with for example, the flutes.  You can use the two  flutes together on a line, or on seperate notes freely.  There is not the kind of resonance and chorusing with woodwinds - UNLESS you are talking about a symphonic band - as there is with brass and strings.

Posted on Sun, Apr 29 2012 14:32
by didger
Joined on Sat, Oct 27 2007, Salt Lake City, Posts 68

Yep, there's certainly no need for Dimension Woodwinds, but I would love a Bb clarinet 2. We've got two flutes, two bassoons, and can manage oboes with all the different types available, but a second clarinet would be really nice.

Posted on Sun, Apr 29 2012 18:54
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5683

I agree with that about clarinet since two are standard in orchestra and it would be nice to have a distinct, different 2nd player which is what you have with the 2nd flute which is a wonderful, subtly different performance in the samples.  What I've been doing on 2nd clarinet - which you probably already do also - is either a pitch shift/transposition or using the ensemble clarinets as a second.  That latter actually works very well, giving a richness to the sound, even though it is somewhat weird from a strict realism standpoint.

Posted on Sun, Apr 29 2012 19:40
by Carlo
Joined on Sat, Oct 20 2007, Vienna, Posts 6

I would look forward to a second Bb clarinet too!

Posted on Mon, Apr 30 2012 08:33
by gstoraa_2685
Joined on Mon, Jun 30 2003, Posts 36

A 2nd Bb (or A) clarinet,  and C trumpet straight mute, would be additions to the library that I would be most happy with.

Posted on Mon, Apr 30 2012 09:41
by fritzflotow
Joined on Mon, Apr 23 2007, Posts 327

VSL hasn't released anything new since dimension brass and reported to still record new samples every day. That means there must be something big coming and I guess it will arrive this year (maybe this summer?)!

IMO the future of any sample library lies in hitting the right spot between the greatest flexibility of sample modeling instruments and the unmatched instant sound of e.g. East West Holywood series. I think it would be bad if they changed their route to recording in a different room, hence, they must do something to move towards (physical) modeling, as they already have the MIR-approach for putting it in a room, Dimension Strings would be very welcome, but I would only invest in a new major VSL product, if there would be more features in handling these samples, like better X-fade (as  earlier mentioned), natural sounding pitchbends, etc.

Posted on Mon, Apr 30 2012 10:25
by andyjh
Joined on Wed, Dec 15 2010, Posts 600

Martinz wrote:
 

And if VSL will find a method to handle velocity xfade for each player without "xfading" (so that there are not 2 samples played simultaneously) there would be hard for other string libraries to compete for long.  

 

That is a physical impossibilty,  crossfading is the term that describes crossfading between two samples,  unless you have two samples playing at once you can't crossfade.

Velocity switching of samples  is still probably the only answer, but it's a case of how many samples are needed to make a velocity switch smooth enough to sound convincingly real, and taking into account all the permutations needed and  enough samples for smoothness - probably too many samples to ever come up with a solution.

Unless of course this is what VSL are working on..........

Posted on Mon, Apr 30 2012 18:26
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5683

This assumption that crossfading is always bad is wrong.  There is no audible difference between crossfading and actual recorded dynamic changes with a string ensemble.  In fact, you could be fooled in a blind test.  I know this because of one simple reason - I have used, one note after the other, crossfaded ensemble and actual recorded dynamic ensemble articulations, and you simply cannot hear any difference.  EVen listening for it solo, let alone in an orchestral context.   The only problem arises when there are not enough velocity layers to crossfade with.  Of course if you only have two, it won't sound good.   But the VSL samples generally use 4, and they are very smooth. 

The only reason to avoid crossfade - even though there seems to be some attempt these days to make it seem "uncool to crossfade" - is on solo instruments - especially smooth sounding, non vibrato ones like a trombone or a clarinet - in which the phasing becomes obvious as the layers overlap. 

Posted on Tue, Sep 18 2012 11:36
by markbatuer
Joined on Tue, Nov 15 2011, Posts 22
Finally the Dimension Strings comes. It's fantastic. But only 8 players maximum. It would be very lovely if more players were recorded.
Posted on Tue, Sep 18 2012 14:00
by andyjh
Joined on Wed, Dec 15 2010, Posts 600

markbatuer wrote:
Finally the Dimension Strings comes. It's fantastic. But only 8 players maximum. It would be very lovely if more players were recorded.
 

I don't want to be negative about the library we have been waiting  such a long time for,  but I agree that 8 violin players is a little thin on the ground, and what do we do for a second violin section ? 

Posted on Tue, Sep 18 2012 14:08
by VSL
Joined on Tue, Dec 02 2014, Posts
0

read Herb's interview, he makes a very good point about a second violin section :)

Posted on Tue, Sep 18 2012 14:25
by markbatuer
Joined on Tue, Nov 15 2011, Posts 22
That's true 8 players is a little thin. If you really want to use it you may probably will have to mix with other library. But we can assume this: what if someone only bought the Dimension Strings and he has no other string library? After all there is only one demo mp3 and one video on violin. We can not see the whole image of Dimension Strings until 2013.

So really want to know how you guys see this and want to listen to more people's advices.
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