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  4. Special Edition layers?

  • Special Edition layers?

    W
    W

    Hello:

    I recently purchased the VSL Special Edition Horns. The problem I'm having is

    when I play the French HornsI find that the horns forte layer pop out when I'm playing

    and it transitions from one layer to the other layer. I can't seem to control

    it. The softer layer sounds smooth and then it transitions to the louder layer

    which sounds too harsh. With only two layers there doesn't seem to be

    anything in-between. Can someone offer some advice on how to control

    this? Is this the limitation of only having two layers? When I try to edit

    the velocity levels in DP, it doesn't seem to correct the problem.

    Any suggestions would be greatly appreicated. Do I need to adjust

    the velocity curve on my controller?

    Thanks,

    Tom
  • D
    D

     Are you using Velocity xFade?

    DG
  • W
    W

    Yes, I just figured that out. How would you suggest

    I use that? Should I play the part and then go back

    and make a second pass using the velocity X-fade.

    Also, if I'm on a Mac, how do you reset the continuous

    controllers back to their defalut positions

    in the software (Vienna Instrument)?

    Thanks for your help.

    Tom
  • E
    E
    I've also found the ff layers for most of the brass in SE1 aren't very good. Solutions I've used/considered:

    * really working with automating the x-fade, without triggering the ff layer -- creating a good-sounding envelope for a loud note;
    * mixing different patches and layers, again automating the x-fades -- maybe using the ff layer or staccato patch for just the attack;
    * and of course, checking out one of the brass packages.
  • V
    V

    I find too that there is a little problem for the velocity layers with the horns for the legato patch...  I have the special edition,  but in two months I will buy the Brass 1 with extended content.  The legato performance is the same for the special edition and the DVD collection,  they have 2 velocity layers...

    The transition to the first layer to the second,  PP to FF,  contrast too much...  It's the same thing for the triple horn,  and the 4 horns ensemble.  The timbre of these instruments change drastically depending the velocity used...

    Dimension Brass with 4 velocity layers  [:D]...
  • D
    D

    I assume that you guys have played with the filter controller?

    DG
  • M
    M

    I too encounter this problem with the SE brass. DG what do you mean by filter controller? Thanks
  • V
    V

    What is that DG?  [:D]

    Thank you for your help!

    Vincent
  • D
    D

     Look at the controllers on the VI GUI. One is called filter. You can pull this down a tad if you find the sound too strident.

    DG
  • PaulP
    VSL Team
    PaulP

    Hi guys, 

    Just wanted to add: the filter works very well with brass instruments, especially for "fake" dynamic changes in the forte range (reducing the high frequencies, the "blaring" sound). And of course you can also automate it and combine it with Velocity Xfade. 

    Many options...

    Best, 

    Paul

    Paul Kopf Product Manager VSL
  • V
    V

    Thank you very much DG and Paul,  I will try this tonight!  [:D]
  • C
    C
    "The legato performance is the same for the special edition and the DVD collection, they have 2 velocity layers..." Hang on, is that true? I have the SE also and was hoping to upgrade. I was interested in getting the performance trills and the glissandi, but I thought I'd be getting smoother dynamics as well.
  • M
    M
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    @Casiquire said:

    "The legato performance is the same for the special edition and the DVD collection, they have 2 velocity layers..." Hang on, is that true? I have the SE also and was hoping to upgrade. I was interested in getting the performance trills and the glissandi, but I thought I'd be getting smoother dynamics as well.

    I was also concerned when reading this - I thought the DVD collections had more velocity layers (even in the legatos)??? How about Dimension Brass?
  • V
    V

    When I bought appassionata,  chambers and woodwinds 1 with extended content,  I had a bad suprise when I discovered that the full DVD collection had the same legato performance of the Special Edition...  [:S]

    BUT...  People on this forum made me realise it was not very important...  And they were right!  The extended collections have a LOTTTTT of different articulations!  And a lot of them have 5 velocity layers!  [:O]

    When you try to simulate the BEST virtual orchestra,  you're not using just legato or other performance.  To make the instruments sound real,  you have to use pratically the more different articulation you can...

    And velocity crossefade is not really good for solo instrument.   So crossing between 4 velocity layers can sound very strange...

    [;)]

    [EDIT] ---------------------

    But the 4 velocity layers of Dimension Brass looks so amazing!  [:D]

    What a contradictory post!  [:D]
  • J
    J
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    @Eggsalad said:

    I've also found the ff layers for most of the brass in SE1 aren't very good. Solutions I've used/considered:

    * really working with automating the x-fade, without triggering the ff layer -- creating a good-sounding envelope for a loud note;
    * mixing different patches and layers, again automating the x-fades -- maybe using the ff layer or staccato patch for just the attack;
    * and of course, checking out one of the brass packages.

     

    When working with DAWs and virtual instruments in general, it's easier to tame a harsh sound then it is to make a tame sound harsh.  If that makes any sense.
  • C
    C
    That's very true, it's much easier to remove the highs than to ad them back in. I do appreciate this fact about VSL. But I like lots of dynamic layers!
  • N
    N
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    @Casiquire said:

    "The legato performance is the same for the special edition and the DVD collection, they have 2 velocity layers..." Hang on, is that true? I have the SE also and was hoping to upgrade. I was interested in getting the performance trills and the glissandi, but I thought I'd be getting smoother dynamics as well.
     

    Perhaps the most critical difference between SE (I also started there) and the full libraries, is the extended content in the full libraries.  The extended content includes all kinds of dynamics patches and those dynamics patches are a tremendous help in terms of creating dynamic realism.

    OT sidenote: one of the things I wish the extended orchestra strings had was some fpf patches.
  • C
    C
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    @noldar12 said:

    Perhaps the most critical difference between SE (I also started there) and the full libraries, is the extended content in the full libraries.  The extended content includes all kinds of dynamics patches and those dynamics patches are a tremendous help in terms of creating dynamic realism.

    That makes perfect sense and I guess I'm just spoiled in a very particular way by sample libraries that are different (not necessarily "better") than VSL. This means that I expect patches like Performance Trills and Legato to be instantly playable for almost all purposes without the need to switch articulations much, with a huge dynamic range. I'm not used to a sample library where the major strength is the large amount of articulations, even if that means greater realism. I just have to adjust my expectations a bit to really make full use of the advantages of these libraries.
  • D
    D
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    @noldar12 said:

    Perhaps the most critical difference between SE (I also started there) and the full libraries, is the extended content in the full libraries.  The extended content includes all kinds of dynamics patches and those dynamics patches are a tremendous help in terms of creating dynamic realism.

    That makes perfect sense and I guess I'm just spoiled in a very particular way by sample libraries that are different (not necessarily "better") than VSL. This means that I expect patches like Performance Trills and Legato to be instantly playable for almost all purposes without the need to switch articulations much, with a huge dynamic range. I'm not used to a sample library where the major strength is the large amount of articulations, even if that means greater realism. I just have to adjust my expectations a bit to really make full use of the advantages of these libraries. 

    Which particular libraries are you thinking about? I find that Performance Legato and Performance trill are are instantly playable. In fact I can't think of another library that has Performance Trills. If you are talking about libraries that fake such things with scripting, then obviously there is less expertise required from you, but I have yet to hear one of these products where these tricks actually work.

    FWIW you can set VSL up so that you don't have to change patch so much, if you know what you're doing, and are a good enough keyboard player to achieve it. Maybe give a few specifics of where things aren't working for you, and I might be able to give some advice.

    DG
  • W
    W
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    @Casiquire said:

    That makes perfect sense and I guess I'm just spoiled in a very particular way by sample libraries that are different (not necessarily "better") than VSL. This means that I expect patches like Performance Trills and Legato to be instantly playable for almost all purposes without the need to switch articulations much, with a huge dynamic range. I'm not used to a sample library where the major strength is the large amount of articulations, even if that means greater realism. I just have to adjust my expectations a bit to really make full use of the advantages of these libraries.

    There are no libraries that compete with VSL in terms of dynamic range.   But if one does not switch articulations one is doing simplistic music.  Drones and pads? -  sure, other libraries are great for that.  But in order to play realistic orchestral music you have to switch between many, many articulations.  Because you are emulating 60 - 80 players who are constantly doing that all on their own, each within their own instrument's parameters.  Multiply what you do in a performance exponentially, and you will arrive at an approximation of what goes on in an orchestral performance.  The only library which can even approach this kind of complexity is VSL.  

    Nevertheless, the performance trills are completely straightforward - all you do is play them.  There is no switching involved.  Also, legato is similarly used.  You can just play on the keyboard and get an instant realistic line for any given instrument.   This is so true with legato instruments of VSL that I've developed an approach with custom patches to start first with legato, and everything else secondary.  Because the legato patches give you both legato and sustain automatically, and even give a slight emphasis on the repetition of a note in an otherwise legato line.  So with crossfade velocity, you can do everything in one pass for a large amount of many musical lines, then clarify the details with short notes, tremolo, etc. 

    The elegant interface of Vienna Ensemble simplifies this tremendously, compared with other libraries that are stuck with either Kontakt or Play or their own player, most of which are horrendously clumsy compared to VE for orchestral use.   It is exceedingly diffcult to analyze exactly what is needed to access a complex array of orchestral samples in a logical, intuitive, simple way.  And VSL has spent the last ten years figuring out how to do this with an amazing degree of success.