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Tutorial: Mixing an Orchestra - played with Samples
Last post Mon, Jan 07 2013 by Beat Kaufmann, 30 replies.
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Posted on Wed, Jun 20 2012 13:37
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1726

Hi all

On the one hand there are lots of books and tutorials about "mixing". But most of them treat the mix of a band, of drums, guitars etc.

On the other hand there is not much information how to mix an orchestra together with the common effects (EQ, Panners, Compressors...)

Further: When we get a tutorial about compressors (or other effects) we always get examples with drums or guitars but never with orchestra instruments or orchestra sections!

So this leads me to the question: Would you like to get a tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra with Samples"?

If yes, please visit my homepage. You will find some more information about the current concept of the possible tutorial.

But you also have the possibility to add wishes, comments, feedbacks which can take influence on the final content...

If you are interested in this matter thanks a lot for being active at my homepage.

Yours

Beat Kaufmann

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Wed, Jun 20 2012 15:38
by cgernaey
Joined on Mon, Apr 04 2005, Detroit-Michigan, Posts 1053

I will definitely respond as I have always wanted something on this subject.  I have tried reading many manuals about mixing but it is so distracting reading about as you said, guitars, etc but never an orchestral samples mixing environment.  I have been forced as many, to learn by simple trial and error which can take many years to get good results.  I would love to see exactly how to do this and then how to finish mastering the project to make it sound more alive and realistic.  I tend to find most people mix to far away for my taste (placing instruments as if I am in the back of the room, instead of sitting in the conductors chair).

Maestro2be

Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, 128GB RAM, AMD 3970X 32-core
Gigabyte TRX40 Aorus Xtreme, Radeon RX 5500 XT
Studio One 4.6, Cubase 10.5, Nuendo 10
RME Multiface 2, All NVMe SSD Drives (OS & Samples)
Posted on Wed, Jun 20 2012 15:46
by servandus
Joined on Fri, Nov 06 2009, Posts 132

Hi Beat,

  I voted in your web and think a tutorial like that, if it covers the pecularities, and specific mixing techniques for each orchestral instrument/section, would be very popular. 

  But.. (^_^)... an advanced MIR tutorial (I mean really going beyond its basic use), covering microphone choices and multiple mic settings, instrument placement and orientation, the use of Character presets and the various Vienna Suite plugins, and different routing configurations and mixing techniques would be just great!! ... and maybe even more in demand?

  Would you consider this possibility?

  Best regards, 

Servando Valero
Posted on Wed, Jun 20 2012 18:18
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1726

Hi Servandus

I understand, that really good results with MIR use some knowledge more as well.

Nevertheless, MIR is done for chosing a venue, placing the instruments and that's your mix.

So the first content for a mixing tutorial has to be written for the hudge amount of people who don't own MIR, I believe.

But - If it comes to this tutorial your wish could be an addition later on.

...Maybe there is another user who will write some tricks in connection with MIR just now for you...?

Best Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Wed, Jun 20 2012 20:17
by servandus
Joined on Fri, Nov 06 2009, Posts 132

Thanks Beat,

  I understand that writing a good, comprenhensive mixing tutorial is anything but a trivial task, and will take a lot of time. So, it's surely a good idea to concentrate on general mixing concepts for a wider public first. Given your experience, you will know better than anybody else how this should be organized. Anyway, I'm glad you're not completely closed to the possibility of addresing the specifics of MIR in a later addition.

  I hope you get enough feedback from interested users, and finally decide to write this tutorial. So, best wishes for this project.

Servando Valero
Posted on Thu, Jun 21 2012 07:19
by Mike B Studios
Joined on Thu, Feb 16 2012, Hollywood, CA, Posts 410
Great Idea... Thanks
Posted on Thu, Jun 21 2012 21:54
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1726
servandus wrote:
...Anyway, I'm glad you're not completely closed to the possibility of addresing the specifics of MIR in a later addition...

Hello Servando

One more reason is, that this tutorial also can be used by people "outside the world of VSL" because mixing a sample orchestra is also intersting in Gothab, Greenland /Ushuaia, Chile / McDonald Island, Australia / Lubumbashi, Congo /...  Wink

Best

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Sat, Jun 30 2012 10:16
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1726

Sorry for all who had any hope

But the result: No Tutorial

More information >>> here

Thanks for doing your best...

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Sun, Jul 01 2012 16:47
by cgernaey
Joined on Mon, Apr 04 2005, Detroit-Michigan, Posts 1053

Thanks for trying Beat.  Is really a shame.  I am surprised that is all the feedback you received.  This is such a huge black hole, trying to find information on how to mix orchestral sample music.  I suspect there are tremendous more people who need something like this that simply never seen your offer or links.

Additionally it is very sad how cruel people can be.  It never feels good to have people joke or attack something you are passionate about.  While I have been fortunate to only have asked 3 questions total on the Cubase forums, the answers were good because I made sure I had no other avenue but to ask.  Some of the threads I read there, wow, those people can absolutely be rude and very condescending.

I really appreciate you at least considering helping some of us that would love to see it, but I can see how you might feel trying to decide between time spent and income received.  i wish you all the best Beat and hope that your generous giving to the community doesn't stop here.  Maybe you don't hear it often, or from all the voices that you have helped but we really do appreciate what you do (at least I can speak for myself).

Maestro2be

Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, 128GB RAM, AMD 3970X 32-core
Gigabyte TRX40 Aorus Xtreme, Radeon RX 5500 XT
Studio One 4.6, Cubase 10.5, Nuendo 10
RME Multiface 2, All NVMe SSD Drives (OS & Samples)
Posted on Sun, Jul 01 2012 21:20
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1726
cgernaey wrote:

...I wish you all the best Beat and hope that your generous giving to the community doesn't stop here.  Maybe you don't hear it often, or from all the voices that you have helped but we really do appreciate what you do (at least I can speak for myself)...

Maestro2be

Thanks for you kind words. I'm getting a lot of such feedbacks but nevertheless you like such compliments at any time again.

I've decided to write a small tutorial about using effects for "mixing our music". If it becomes a hit I can still write the second part about "mixing an orchestra".

For now and for as a consolation for your kindness: a small Excerpt from Bach's 1st Piano Concerto... ;-)

Maybe the orchestra is not as close to the conductor as you wish but at least the piano - have fun!

Thanks once more, with kind regards

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Tue, Jul 03 2012 04:59
by Sonophile
Joined on Thu, Jan 23 2003, Posts 133

 Too bad ... I didn't have enough time to check that but as it is (was) a wonderful idea, it was in my schedule.

We never know all :)

Anyway, I'll looking for your next tutorials for sure !

Best

Mathieu Laprise
Windows 7 Pro 64 bits - Dual Xeon X5650 @ 2.67GHz - 24 cores - 72 Gb RAM - NVIDIA geforce GTS 450 - RME 9652

Studio Sonomax inc. (www.studiosonomax.com)
Posted on Thu, Jul 05 2012 14:35
by knechtodawas
Joined on Mon, Aug 22 2011, Posts 18
Maybe you should have extended the voting period. I believe there are many people who only look from time to time into this forum. Me for example: If it still would be online today I would vote FOR such a tutorial!
Posted on Fri, Jul 06 2012 14:35
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1726
knechtodawas wrote:
Maybe you should have extended the voting period. I believe there are many people who only look from time to time into this forum. Me for example: If it still would be online today I would vote FOR such a tutorial!

Hi Knechtodawas

Thanks for your feedback

What are you interested in? Are there special themes? or is it the process of mixing music over all?

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Mon, Jul 09 2012 14:56
by knechtodawas
Joined on Mon, Aug 22 2011, Posts 18
Hi Beat,
I am interested in the mixing process of orchestral music in general. What I really would like to see is a video tutorial of a complete mixdown.
Posted on Tue, Jul 10 2012 08:24
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1726
knechtodawas wrote:
Hi Beat, I am interested in the mixing process of orchestral music in general. What I really would like to see is a video tutorial of a complete mixdown.

Hello Knechtodawas

I suspect that your mother tongue is German (because of "Knecht..."). If this is true you will be able to read the planed concept of the tutorial here in the Cubase Forum:

http://www.steinberg.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=23985 (post 6)

About Videos.

Watching a video is OK but for really having a successful future with your mixes you need to practice everything.

Example: You need to find cutting points of a highpass filter yourself and this for any instrument. So you should try to do this yourself sometimes.

So my approach would be to teach and guide you for using all the effects and give you certain exercises incl. music files which have to be treated...

Mixing is such a complex process. This needs some hours of practice. You can't get all the knowledge by simply watching a 60-min video.

As I mentioned above I'm going to write a smaller Tutorial about using different effects in connection with orchestra samples.

I hope to publish it by the end of comming August.

If this tutorial will get a "best seller" I will write Part 2 - so to say.

This would be about "mixing an orchestra" and this 2nd Part will need the knowledge of Part 1 about the effects.

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Tue, Jul 10 2012 10:12
by gabriel81
Joined on Tue, Nov 17 2009, Wien, Posts 242

I have been too late as well ;(

If this might come up again, I would also be interrested (And willing to pay) in this tutoria, as long it is suited for Novices

Rgds

Gabriel

VSL SE (no extension), Vienna Smart Orchestra
Sopranos, Flute2, Fanfare Trumpets
Synchron Strings
VE Pro 7
VI Pro + MIRx
Cubase 9
Posted on Tue, Jul 10 2012 14:10
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1726
gabriel81 wrote:

I have been too late as well ;(

If this might come up again, I would also be interrested (And willing to pay) in this tutoria, as long it is suited for Novices

Rgds

Gabriel

Hi Gabriel

Thanks for your interest.

Even if a complete and unversal "mixing tutorial" isn't come into sight there is not "Nothing".

So sorry for advertising the existing "Tutorial VSL" here, but you are going to mix this piece more or less 1:1 with it - using the Suite Effects.

See also the content of Tutorial VSL (Chapter 9 - 13 for the mixing matter)

The history shows the additions in the course of time (always free of charge).

All the best

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Thu, Dec 27 2012 14:02
by Byxx
Joined on Tue, Mar 30 2010, Posts 46

Hallo Beat,

welchen Workflow würdest Du für VSL Special Edition, VE, VI vorschlagen, da es bei mir Probleme gibt, die einzelnen AU und VST Plug Ins in VE zu benutzen. Ich habe wenig VSL Erfahrung bisher und verbringe viel Zeit am Rechner um für mich sinnvolle Arbeitstechniken im Vorfeld zu checken,

Was wäre dagegen zu sagen, alle Instrumente Logic intern zu verwalten, sprich, alle VIs in individuelle Kanäle in Instrument Strips zu ziehenm um die volle PlugIn (VST, AU) Kompatibilität zu haben. Möglicherweise gibt es ja doch eine Möglichkeit, diese in VE zu installieren

Vielleicht würdest Du mir einen Tip geben können, was Workflow, Speicherverwaltung etc bei der Benutzung von VE vs Logics Environment angeht.

Danke

Viele Grüße

TIm

Special Edition
Sequoia 13
Windows 10
Vienna Ensemble Pro 5
Posted on Fri, Dec 28 2012 10:54
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 12106

Hi Tim B, 

The forum language is english, thanks for sticking to it. This way everybody can profit from questions and answers Smile

To answer the question: The advantage of working with VE (PRO) is that you have all instruments in ONE host that also allows you to mix and work with various templates. 

On OSX, we´re using AU Plug-ins exclusively in VE (PRO). Bear in mind that sequencer-specific plug-ins will only be available in the given sequencer.  

Furthermore: Not all plug-ins are available in 64-bit yet, so please check that you are using VE (PRO) in the right mode. 

Best, 
Paul 

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Fri, Dec 28 2012 14:19
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1726
Tim B wrote:
...Was wäre dagegen zu sagen, alle Instrumente Logic intern zu verwalten, sprich, alle VIs in individuelle Kanäle in Instrument Strips zu ziehenm um die volle PlugIn (VST, AU) Kompatibilität zu haben?

Hi Tim

Beside the advantages which Paul explained above: VE isn't necessary. I often use the VIs within Cubase without any VE - just as a "normal" VSTi. You also can route and mix all the signals within Logic because Logic is a host as well. Maybe it is easier for you to start without VE for getting more practice with the VI. If you are closer to the VI and its use you will maybe lucky also "to have VE handy".

So for starting with VSL...

I propose to create a sort of basic organisation within the VI for a faster workflow. This allows you to exchange instruments and to create the wanted template in a short time.

Further, if you got a mixer setup within logic - let's say for the strings - save it for a next project.

The recipe is to think in modules which will allow you to be fexible and to collect orchestra templates in a short time later on.

But one thing you always should take into account: Getting such modules and Presets needs time. So be a bit patient. Don't forget that you can listen today to demos which are produced by members with 10 and more years of experience (...including me).

Later on you can use these presets and experiences within VE.

As I mentioned above: An advantage of VE is the creation of whole orchestra modules (pdf) >> load them and play it just with the correct mix and samples inside VE...

Followed by: the creation of a whole orchestra with such modules... Those modules are easier to handle with VEs than with just Logic.

(The link above - a pdf - shows the idea of such modules but it also gives you some hints how to get a good mix of an orchestra. It probaly helps to understand the meaning of VE in a better way as well. Unfortunately it is advertising in the mean time. Sorry for that reason. But I don't have another and neutral paper about this theme.)

Hope this helped a bit

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
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