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  • COMPOSERS WHO USE VSL FOR "CLASSICAL" WORKS

    I am wondering what people are using VSL in a more "idealisitc" or purely "artistic" way - for realizing musical ideas for their own sake rather than just using a cheap substitute for film /TV scoring.  Are there any?  How does this fit into your overall musical activities?  I am planning a website for composers who are more "classical" (in the sense of composing concert or recorded music for its own sake) and who use VSL because of its amazingly huge possibilities of artistic expression. I constantly find this inspiring and so would like to promote something of the kind generally.


  • I would think that anyone who doesn't work full time on soundtracks makes music mostly for its own sake. Myself, I use VSL for an actual purpose about 10% of the time, and the rest is just pure creation with no clear goal.


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    @clamnectar said:

    I would think that anyone who doesn't work full time on soundtracks makes music mostly for its own sake. Myself, I use VSL for an actual purpose about 10% of the time, and the rest is just pure creation with no clear goal.

     

    In other words, like film students doing avant garde films and being "auteurs" until they're hired to do mainstream romcoms or giant robot actioners and instantly accept.  In L.A., an "art film" is a student film.  And a composer is an artist until he's hired.  Then he drops art like a hot potato.


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    @William said:

    In other words, like film students doing avant garde films and being "auteurs" until they're hired to do mainstream romcoms or giant robot actioners and instantly accept.  In L.A., an "art film" is a student film.  And a composer is an artist until he's hired.  Then he drops art like a hot potato.

    You love abrasively extreme statements, huh?

    No, they are simply different arts. Composing music to moving pictures is an art, and creating music with your own set of conditions and purposes is an art. The former tends to be so demanding of time and energy that it all but precludes the latter in the life of a film composer. The latter is something that can be a part of anyone's life. That film scoring is often artless does not mean it cannot be artful, and in fact many there are many bad films where the score is the only powerful element.


  • Hi William,

        I think your idea of the website to promote such artistic endeavours is a great idea and certainly sounds very interesting. It could also be a great place for the many composers on these forums to showcase their works where the music would take centre stage rather than the products (not that the products aren't great too but they have their own website already!).

    My own use of the VSL products is purely for creative and personal use - mostly for learning about music. No ambitions of any commercial realisation from any works (and probably just as well I might add).

    Tom


  •  thanks Tom, I hope to do something like that. 


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    @clamnectar said:

    Composing music to moving pictures is an art, and creating music with your own set of conditions and purposes is an art. The former tends to be so demanding of time and energy that it all but precludes the latter in the life of a film composer.

    Yes, film scoring can be an art of course.  Very seldom though.  A sad fact I've learned through hard experience.


  • Such a website would be a fantastic idea. Especially if it would also promote excellence in the art of sample-based orchestra (and not only orchestra) production.


  •  Yes Goran, I am thinking it should be a site for excellence in the use of  MIDI  and VSL. 


  • Hi William,

    It's funny you bring up this topic.  For the past few weeks, I personally have been doing some soul searching.  I've been a VSL user since the Horizon days but must admit that I've never really dove into the full capabilities of VSL.  I know I've leaned more toward the film-score approach in writing original compositions while mixing various libraries (other than VSL).  Compared to writing/programming classical works with VSL, it's hard for someone to really evaluate just how good or bad someone is when evaluating original film score type writing.  I'm saying this because, it's hard to critize artistic interpretation of a contempory original work unless it's obviouslly bad programming.

    On the other hand, listening to a VSL classical composition that God and everyone knows makes it much easier to compare to the many recordings that have been done on a particular piece of work.  I hope I'm making sense here......

    Currently, I'm working on Haydn's Symphony No 31 in D Major (Hornsignal) for that very reason.  It's one of the first classical pieces I fell in love with back in the late 60's.  I'm also giving Sibelius a go rather than using a sequencer.  I want to master VSL using Sibelius (which I know in many ways, it's a harder task) and won't be happy with the piece until it sounds exactly like the 3 professional recordings that I have of it.  This for me, will be my approach to gaining the confidence of being able to program VSL using all it's capabilities as they were intended.

    I think your thoughts of creating a VSL/Classical website it an absolute great idea.  


  • Well, so far I "only" used VSL to hear my composition during the composition process. I abandoned the idea of using VSL for the final product. I want my music to be played by musicians, I want a living communication happening between performers and audience.

    Having said that, I must say that my composing career and actually my composing abilities only started with VSL. I need that instant aural feedback. I need to be able to experiment and listen back how the music works over time. So I have a pretty complex and advanced playback machinery behind Sibelius. I come up with orchestrations I would never imagine on paper. Just by experimenting. Or I realize that orchestrations I imagined on paper don't sound the way I imagined. So far all those experiments transported well over to the live players.

    I know there are lots of people who don't need that, who are fine with pen and paper. I am not. I'm more like a painter who is constantly watching his painting growing.

    Also, VSL allows a team-work which wasn't possible before. I'm currently composing an opera. This opera isn't conceived in my lonely room and then given over to the director. VSL allows me to stay in constant exchange with my librettist and staging director and they give me very valuable feedback. What does the best music do when the director doesn't have an idea what to do with it on stage? Nothing...

    All in all: yes, orchestra samples are much much more than producing film music on a budget. They open doors for artistic possibilities and expressions.


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    I've produced 11 albums, 7 symphonies (working on 8th) 3 concerti and many short works all in the digital domain, using sound libraries. I consider my work as an end in itself, I am not mocking up for anything or anyone, and not necessarily seeking performances with live players (done that too). I've also written a lot of music for film, TV, animation, computer games and other projects. I "retired" from soundtrack work (mainly due to fortuitous financial circumstances) to focus on music for music's sake. Why?

    I found soundtrack work to be lucrative, fun and sometimes challenging. Offering a service to others and helping them achieve their purpose definitely has its own rewards. But, for the most part, it's not art. Maybe sometimes, but for the vast amount of paid gigs I've done (and I've done some very well-known projects), music's purpose is to be part of a world, whereas music composition, for its own sake IS the world. The worst gigs are when you really know the film is a piece of crap and you need the money so you're basically polishing a turd. The best gigs are when you really like the project, see its artistic merits, and can contribute something meaningful.

    I have found that it is more artistically and intellectually challenging to write music for its own sake. This is because when a composer does such, he/she is assembling ideas out of nothing, developing and expanding them out of nothing, and creating form that intrinsically evolves out of the material itself. Film music is governed by story, plot, pacing, dialogue and other extra-musical factors, so that, in some ways, it cannot really be free to be the language that it is--an abstract, musical expression that expresses its own universe. And, of course, the business aspect of commercial film, by its very nature, demands conformity to the marketplace, however that is conceived at any given time. We all know that even top film composers imitate--they imitate each other due to another film's commercial success, they imitate classical composers who never wrote for film. Occasionally we hear something quite unique, but not very often. To my own tastes, some of the best films I've seen use pre-existing classical music, such as "Wit".

    Film music can, of course, be an art, but when there are millions of dollars and huge egos involved, it is not likely, too much financial pressure. Sometimes, I think, film composers caught up in the "biz", the paid gigs, the (sometimes) recognition-- either don't see, or don't care about the compromises film music demands. As Upton Sinclair said, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" Since composers have many different types of personalities, some are drawn to film music more than others.

    The first movement of my 8th symphony can be heard HERE

    Jerry Gerber

    www.jerrygerber.com


  •  thanks for those reactions, very interesting to hear.  I am working on this website and can really use ideas on its organization/presentation.


  •   Wish we could see such a website in the near future, William. Please, keep us informed about how this project progresses.

      Best,


  •  A very good idea this website. I regularly use VSL in a classical mode as well for theater as TV, ballets, personal composition and more.

    It's wonderful how good it can sounds ! Long live to the team ! :)


  •  thanks, I'll put something on soon about this for anyone interested!   


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    William, Goran and many others....

    the website you are looking for is there.

    best,
    Erik


  • This looks very good and congratulations on getting it online, but it is not what I had in mind. This is more of a generic music site. Though it might actually more successful than what I was thinking of, it is not specfically for serious artistic composers using VSL. It does help me to clarify in my own mind what I was suggesting, by being a contrast. My idea is to have more of an emphasis on the composers themselves, exemplified by the music. Also, on their thoughts about using VSL, not just any virtual orchestra. And above all, to feature the highest, most intensive and serious use of sample-based performance. That is the whole attraction of some of the threads here to me - that one can hear not just any MIDI, but the GREATEST MIDI PERFORMANCES IN THE WORLD. In other words, this is the high water mark if you wonder just what can be done with the medium.

    So as I continue to clarify what I was thinking, that must be part of it. That the site I was talking about would be for the absolute best MIDI performances that exist. Because today, one hears crappy MIDI everywhere from ring tones to kiddie games to you-name-it. So there MUST NOT BE any sort of generic MIDI quality to this site. There is already too much of that. In fact, one is bombarded by it daily.

    So continuing to define this a little more - it is the intentional, high-level art of MIDI that this site is about. NOT the commercial film/TV/game score composers, NOT the beginners being encouraged to learn by companies eager to soak them for money, NOT the production libraries trying to provide every conceivable type of music and thereby be as generic as is possible - BUT ONLY THE MOST PURE AND ARTISTIC CREATIONS.

    Now people can laugh at me for saying "pure" and "artistic." I've heard it before. But that is what attracts me to some of these threads here - that it is not just a cheap workflow for making money, but is a new form of artistic expression. In fact, that is the ONLY thing that interests me about this whole site.

    So anyway, that purely artistic aspect at the highest level must be paramount.


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    @William said:

    So as I continue to clarify what I was thinking, that must be part of it. That the site I was talking about would be for the absolute best MIDI performances that exist. Because today, one hears crappy MIDI everywhere from ring tones to kiddie games to you-name-it. So there MUST NOT BE any sort of generic MIDI quality to this site. There is already too much of that. In fact, one is bombarded by it daily.

    I strongly agree with this. A serious site of this sort should not merely promote good "classical concert" music, it should also promote excellence in sample-based production of orchestral (and not only orchestral) music - both in performance and sound.


  • PaulP Paul moved this topic from Orchestration & Composition on