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W.A.MOZART - REQUIEM K 626 - Dies Irae
Last post Wed, Sep 05 2012 by bogdan, 12 replies.
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Posted on Sat, Sep 01 2012 00:30
by Philippe BAYLAC
Joined on Thu, Sep 01 2011, France, Posts 341

Hi everybody,

always testing and exploring new things. Today : choir, with the Dies Irae of the Mozart's Requiem K 626. The orchestra is full Vienna, and i use Voxos choir, just with vowels (i will try later with the phrase builder.) Enjoy ! Wink




Posted on Sat, Sep 01 2012 17:11
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5726

I loved the orchestral performance - you did a great job on it.  But the choir part does not sound good.   The lack of words, and big blocks of sound are artificial to hear.   I think that since there is no VSL word-singing choir as yet, the East West Symphonic Choir would sound far better than this and could be used for actual words.  I was impressed with the new version they have of it.  Though you say this Voxos thing has words?  Maybe that would help but it is very chunky sounding.   

Sorry to be  critical, as your orchestral performance on this sounds great.   But since it's a choral piece...

Posted on Sun, Sep 02 2012 18:21
by Jacen
Joined on Sat, Sep 08 2007, Bremen / Germany, Posts 17

I absolutely love Mozart's Requiem, great piece of music! And I have to agree with William: The orchestral part is superb, you did a wonderful job there! As for the choir parts...yes I know how difficult they are, and I'm a lot of work went into it, but I think with word builder you might improve the performance a bit more.

Overall: Great job, and as I said: The orchestral part is really amazing!

Posted on Sun, Sep 02 2012 19:48
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5726

Yes, I hesitated to criticize it because I really like the great work Philippe has been doing with these performances.  If this choir part was programmed with wordbuilder as you mentioned, and broken up in timing accuracy significantly, to make it less blocky, I think it could work really well with the very fine orchestral accompaniment already done.

Posted on Sun, Sep 02 2012 23:34
by Philippe BAYLAC
Joined on Thu, Sep 01 2011, France, Posts 341

Hi William and Jacen,

thanks for listening. You are both right : the choir part is a big piece of s..t ! When i heard that at morning, i asked myself how i had put that on Youtube Embarrassed 3.AM, it is much too late to post something SleepHmm

I tried something esle, using the phrase builder, and with a less shouting choir. Voxos is not like EW Symphonic Choir, you can't build real phrases, you just have few syllables.Of course, this is not exactly what I expect, but it is a little better ...

@William : don't hesitate to criticize ! Wink. And i will follow your advice : I think I'm going to break my piggy bank and buy EWSC. I heard on Youtube Bach chorale done with, it actually looks much better ...

Best. Philippe


Posted on Mon, Sep 03 2012 17:32
by Erik
Joined on Sat, Nov 20 2004, The Netherlands, Posts 144

Try these ones (as made by and added by Theo Vosse on the virtual-instrumentation.com database):

Bach, O Haupt voll Blut und Wunden
Mozart, Ave Verum


Posted on Mon, Sep 03 2012 17:36
by bogdan
Joined on Fri, Apr 18 2008, Canada/ Edmonton , Posts 292

Hi Phillippe,

You did a splendid job by editing the orchestration from Mozart's Requiem. I just can't criticize anything, since I have not tried to simulate any masters' scores but rather compose mine. The only thing that I wanted to mention is that don't hurry wih eastwest choir and not think that you found the culprit ...you're going to enter in another world of frustration. I have both ewqlso and requem light tonehammer. They work well for "epic" style, if something like this exists, but when it comes to classical and phrase articulation, wihere a lot of sensibility is atached to human voice  ...they are weak...I don't say that you can't do anything with them ..but I fear that you 're going to be really satisfied in the end. You can achive something...but honestly far from what you can do with instruments. An interesting aporach is done by olympus choir...but again no wordbuilder just a basic one with few slavic and russian words that can be combined.  

 Anyway, good luck and again beautiful arrangement; and if you decide to go with ewqlso please don't forget to update your score again, maybe you're the one who find the right integration...unfortunatelly I didn't !



Posted on Mon, Sep 03 2012 19:16
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5726

Yes, you are right it might not work in forming words perfectly I agree.  I did recently use the newest "Play" integrated Wordbuilder on several pieces that were fairly simple text, and as I said I was impressed by how it was easy to get it to sound fairly natural.  Though it was not a classical requiem such as this.  However, one additional thing --   Wordbuilder has Latin words built in, so it might be more appropriate for this specific piece.  But the main thing is I always liked the sound of the EW choir -  even though there is no true legato - so  even though it might not work perfectly for realistic words, it is still very useable for many things.  Though of course if VSL creates a word choir it will be THE one to have. 

The current agonizing choices -  

Legato/ no Words (VSL)


Words/ no Legato  (EW) 

Posted on Mon, Sep 03 2012 20:57
by bogdan
Joined on Fri, Apr 18 2008, Canada/ Edmonton , Posts 292

Hi William,

  Totally agree about your remarks; I tried to use it for other languages and is was almost a total failure...but for what you're saying is defineltely the best solution. Yes and true,  latin small phrases can be easiliy constructed withe the pre build latin word associations ! and again Yes...where is VSL with a wordsbuilder ...ehe...that's a question !!

   All the best,


Posted on Tue, Sep 04 2012 01:28
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5726

 btw - I think Philippe is one of the best things about this entire Forum.  He has personally influenced it to include a focus upon the classics as an artistic goal in itself, which I really appreciate immensely. 

Posted on Tue, Sep 04 2012 21:38
by Philippe BAYLAC
Joined on Thu, Sep 01 2011, France, Posts 341

Thanks everybody for your kind comments.

@William : Embarrassed you blush me !

@Bogdan : did you try Olympus yourself ?

All the best.


Posted on Wed, Sep 05 2012 01:33
by bogdan
Joined on Fri, Apr 18 2008, Canada/ Edmonton , Posts 292

Hi Phillippe,

    Unfortunately I don't own for now the Olympus choir...but I was seriously intrigued by their aproach. I watched almost all videos and instructional demos and looked intersting; but again, not so easy to use , and also a bit cumbersome having only some words that you have to combine in order to get others...the result could be awsome if you spend some time...fact true for other choirs.

The sugestion that I wanted to be aware of, in my previous post, was related to the fact that I observed along with your midi mock up that you are a person with sensibility and pretious atention to detail...and with choirs ...this is very frustrating. However, if you' re willing to spend some time and take advantage of all tricks and tweaks available from the manufacturer or other users, you will find that any of the choirs in the end do the trick. Just that is such a large pallete and each and every choir is lacking different things - in a way, they complement each other, but none of them has all the features incorporated into one single product. 

  Again, I was really amazed about your strings in your Mozart's Requiem mock up.. they are so full of life - trully impresive !!

Looking forward for more ,


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