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A crucial information for my next purchase...
Last post Sat, Sep 22 2012 by SJSF, 14 replies.
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Posted on Tue, Sep 18 2012 22:55
by Vincent M
Joined on Sat, Jul 02 2011, Posts 205

 Hello everyone.

I need some informations for my next strings purchase.  It would be very appreciated if the VSL team could answer my question because it's crucial for my purchase.

Do this combination for the dimension string would create any phasing issues for the same articulation played in unison,  in full string tutti or partial string tutti?  The number indicates the player,  and when (2) or (3) is next to it,  it means the same players but with the the same patch transposed 1 or 2 semitones higher,  and corrected via the pitch wheel (0 or 31).

Violins 1 :  1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8   + 1(2) 2(2) 3(2) 4(2)  (12 players)

Violins 2 :  5(2) + 6(2) + 7(2) + 8(2) + 1(3) + 2(3) + 3(3) + 4(3) + 5(3) + 6(3)  (10 players)

I'm asking this because,  even with the semitone trick,  there is a lot of phasing with the chamber strings.

Thank you very much for your help!

Vincent

Posted on Wed, Sep 19 2012 09:53
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 12393

Hello Vincent, 

Did you find time to read through the interview with Herb yet?

He´s pointing out some possibilities to add more players by creating vairous mixed groups with different settings. 

Transposition is not really an option for us. It would change the accuracy of the division into different strings, open strings would be a half-tone step lower (and therefore not even exist on the given instrument)....

Of course it´s also an option to add, e.g., 4 players of the Dimension Violins to each of our already recorded string sections (Chamber Strings / Orchestral Strings / Appassionata Strings)

If you want to hear a stronger melody line with just the Dimension Strings, e.g., in the lower register, you´ll be surprised how effective it is to let 8 violins play sul G, and another 8 violins sul D (and then sul D and sul A  and so on). 

Hope that helps! 

Best, 

Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Wed, Sep 19 2012 14:40
by Vincent M
Joined on Sat, Jul 02 2011, Posts 205

Thank you very much Paul for your help,  I know what to buy now.  Wink

Can you tell me why even with differents articulations,  I hear phasing with the chamber strings when playing in unison?  I thought that transposing the patch would solve this issue...

I don't hear any problem with woodwinds or brass,  orchestral and appassionata strings.  But with the chamber there is a lot of phasing.  Tongue Tied

Thank you again,

Vincent

Posted on Wed, Sep 19 2012 15:25
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 12393

Hi Vincent, 

Hm, I wonder what would makes the difference to other instruments... Not sure about that, sorry to say. 

Best, 

Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Wed, Sep 19 2012 20:15
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5561

If you are using different articulations, there is no phasing.  They are totally different recordings. Also, if you do the transposition/pitch shift, it is not phasing either because they are completely different sample recordings being put together.   You are probably hearing the natural chorusing of similar timbres which is normal, not actual phasing which is the same exact waveform doubled.  You can sometimes hear a similar thing happen with two different brass instruments.  Their timbres are so close that there is a chorusing effect, though it is not at all the same waveform.  This chorusing effect in fact lies behind the reason for a large ensemble of doubled instruments such as 14 clarinets in a symphonic band playing the same line. 

O.K., enough of this, back to waiting for the Dimension string download...  I've only got 50 hours to go! 

Posted on Sat, Sep 22 2012 00:04
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Posts 499
William wrote:

If you are using different articulations, there is no phasing.  They are totally different recordings. 

I think there is a problem with this position. Two recordings of the same flute playing together do result in a level of artificiality that is most certainly audible to those with an ear for it. There is a timbral difference between overdubbing, which will share a timbral relationship, as opposed to two different instruments. That's not even counting the fact that by being forced to make adjustments to EQ, etc to acheive a Violin II sound- that you are losing a great deal of flexibility in how you mix that section. Personally, every time I play with a Mach Violin II section, it has never sounded even remoately effective. Although, the concept of different strings and mroe options may improve this a great deal. I still feel that it is just better to record the total amount of instruments, that a Violin II section should always be sampled. But regarldess of that preference, I am excited for Dimension Strings nonetheless.

-Sean

Posted on Sat, Sep 22 2012 08:03
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

 I think I need to point a couple of things out:

  1. In real life you do hear phasing between players. This is really common in a trombone section, for example.
  2. One of the reasons a string section sounds the way that it does is that the players are constantly phasing with each other. This is natural and part of the sound.

Having said that it should now be clear why you hear unacceptable phasing, even with a transposed patch. The only way to avoid this is by timing, different controller values and most importantly, by tuning. Even then, you have to understand that 12 x 6 players does not equal 12 players and never will, until some software genius manages to analyze how to account for the sonic differences.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
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Posted on Sat, Sep 22 2012 13:17
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5561

 Yes DG is correct in there being real-life phasing.  That is what happens with a big ensemble of brass, winds, etc.  and what makes a string section or band clarinet section sound so big.   I was referring to "phasing" in this sense as what happens when an exact reproduction of a soundwave is electronically duplicated on top of another, resulting in weird harmonics, bad chorusing, etc.  In a synthesizer done deliberately for a special effect, with samples done accidentally.  But phasing  does not happen in this bad or unuseable way when you use the transpose pitch-shift technique because if you look at the waveforms on an oscilloscope they are totally different even though they sound almost the same.  You might hear some more CHORUSING than you want, but that is NOT the same thing as phasing in this electronic sense. 

Posted on Sat, Sep 22 2012 13:59
by andyjh
Joined on Wed, Dec 15 2010, Posts 600

 If humanize is used in Dimension Strings to randomize delay and pitch in one instance of 8 players, and then a different set of humanize parameters used in another instance of 8 players to create a fuller 16 section first violin section, and then another 8 players humanized for the second violin section,  will this create enough difference in the players to avoid phase cancelling when they happen to play in unison?

Or more to the point - will this create a convincing 24 player violin section? 

That's assuming this method doesn't bring my computer to it's knees in terms of processing power !

Posted on Sat, Sep 22 2012 14:52
by Vincent M
Joined on Sat, Jul 02 2011, Posts 205

The phasing that I hear with the chamber violins and the transposed one playing ine unison is really unacceptable.  Very present and dirty.  Big Smile

Thank you DG for the information.  Wink

Posted on Sat, Sep 22 2012 15:50
by mmueller
Joined on Mon, Sep 28 2009, Posts 120
andyjh wrote:

Or more to the point - will this create a convincing 24 player violin section?


This is the real question before spending a grand on a new library. If you have to combine dimensions strings with other libraries to create larger sections it seems a little pointless to me.

While the amount of sonic detail is incredible I doubt this will still stand out when the libraries are combined.

Posted on Sat, Sep 22 2012 17:27
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Posts 499
DG wrote:
In real life you do hear phasing between players. This is really common in a trombone section, for example.

That is true, but doesn't negate the need for a Violin II section. Consider this: two trombonists on two different trombones produce two very different timbres. A trombone may be made from Nickel Silver or Rose Brass, etc. These two instruments have unique sonic qualities and two trombonists have unique playing characteristcs even down to the most subtle of differences in attacks, releases, sustain consistency, etc. There are differences and no amount of computer programming, eq'ing, etc. will ever be able to account for this. You may consider it as effective to overdub, but others don't. This alone is enough of an argument for a Violin II section. But the real problem with the phasing comparison amongst trombones is that cyclic phasing between two different instruments sounds very different between the phasing that takes place in overdubbing. The sonic differences between the two different trombones means that you are ONLY getting the cyclic phasing. When you overdub you not only get the cyclic phasing, but the artificiality of having the same instrument play both parts. If I were wrong, then the same violin could be used to record the entire ensemble and it should be JUST as effective. The problem is that it isn't as effective.

Not to mention the fact that VSL users have been requesting a Violin II section and while that remains unanswered, other sample libraries are offering it. Don't get me wrong, I still consider VSL libraries to be of the highest quality and I'm setting aside my money to buy Dimension Strings. I'm all for it. I just think that a Violin II section is more than justified and that not sampling one is less logical.

-Sean

P.S. Please keep in mind, this is all my friendly opinion. Wink

Posted on Sat, Sep 22 2012 17:33
by Anssi
Joined on Mon, Dec 13 2010, Posts 17
I would too like some more information:

-Is it possible to make one of the violins to be solo violin against all the other Dimension Strings instruments (well obviously yes, but that it would also sound good?) and is there a particular Violin "marked" to be better or the best for a solo job? Or are they all equal so to say?

Would it be possible to have audio demo for same passage using only Dimension strings violins:

Solo violin
4 I Violins
3 II Violins
(8 players total, so no need for "doubling" of samples or players)

Solo violin
8 I Violins
7 II Violins
(16 players so all the 8 players would be doubled)

Solo Violin
17 Violins I
14 VIolins II
(32 players so all the 8 players would be quadrupled)

Perhaps a passage from W.A. Mozart Violin Concerto K.216 last Rondeau part? (starting at the measure 41: solo is for a short time, a passage for just a Solo violin and I & II Violins) or something else for comparison. If someone would do a demo... well it would be great! :)

Or is it better for unison playing to have equal amount of players: 8xViolins I&II and 16xViolins I&II?



-What are the instrument ranges and are the ranges somewhat same between "all" the articulations? (for example does the pizzicato, legato, etc. patch have the same range as the normal sustain instrument?) and particularly: does the contrabasses have extended lower range, thus lower than the "usual" E?

Thanks.

-Anssi
Posted on Sat, Sep 22 2012 17:35
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Posts 499
andyjh wrote:
Or more to the point - will this create a convincing 24 player violin section? 

Andyjh,

Is it convincing? That's up to you. For me it isn't. Humanizations such as delay aren't enough though. Dimension strings has multiple options for this, such as the string used and the different expessive patches, etc. But the real question of 'convincingness' is whether you could take those 8 violins and build a rendition of 32 players playing different patches, different humanizations, all in unison, and have as convincing of a result as you would have had if you had recorded as many players together. In all my experience, there is always a noticable difference. I don't have dimension strings yet so I will have to play with it to really test it out.

The demo video does show some degree of mixing articulations, but not in creating a Violin II or a larger Violin section. I think it would be great if someone demoed this. Big Smile Perhaps, if with Dimension Strings, it is convincing enough then it may settle some of the concerns people have about this.

-Sean

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