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  4. Orch + Chamber = Cinematic Section

  • Orch + Chamber = Cinematic Section

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    Has anyone tried combining Orchestral Strings and Chamber Strings to create a film/cinema size string section? Orch = 14 violins and chamber = 6 so the combination is 20, although I would turn the volume of the chamber down so the 6 violins are not as loud as 14. I would try using very minor and subtle pitch bend to move the pitch a tiny bit up and down in places so the chamber and orch are very slightly detuned in spots. I might also take a bit of midrange out of the chamber section. Putting a touch of solo string (if not too loud) would also add a wider vibrato to increase the richness. I already have Hollywood Strings and am planning to add Appassionata, but this seems like an interesting and reasonable alternative. Just curious if anyone can share previous results before I spend too much time on this. For the record, Hollywood sounds really good but it is hard to use and it is very taxing on the computer. I find VSL's system much friendlier. Thoughts on this?
  • D
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    Adding Chamber to Orchestral will just make the sound smaller, not bigger.

    DG
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     I'v noticed that also.  It is because there is no relationship between the numerical values added and the actual sound.  It simply blends in a smaller sound, doing the reverse of what you want.  So Appassionata is the way for a "cinematic" sound.  However Dimension Strings DO blend in with other ensembles and make them larger and more complex.   

    btw  ---  what is "cinematic" ?  El Cid? The Ten Commandments?  Repo Man?  The Terminator? Eraserhead?  (the last being my favorite soundtrack)
  • B
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    I don't disbelieve you but find that hard to understand. If I record several violins on a audio track and then record several more on a separate track, it would make the sound larger. But if you have tried this and say it does not work, I believe you. And cinematic or film section is a shorthand way many producers refer to a string section than is larger than a standard symphony, understanding, of course, that symphonies vary in size. Usually a symphony is 14-18 1st violines and a decreaing number of 2nd violins, violas, cellos, and basses. A cinematic section is usually 20 or so 1st violins.
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    @bhartmann said:

    A cinematic section is usually 20 or so 1st violins

    Except for all the films that don't use that and are masterpieces of cinema.  So much for "cinematic."  

  • W
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     by the way - I was referring t  El Cid - the score by Miklos Rosza.  Ten Commandments - the score by Elmer Bernstein.  Both of those huge epic string sections with orchestrations that make Zimmer and the current standard of reference laughable. 

    However, Terminator is total analog synthesizer and Eraserhead  essentially musique concrete.  Another example of "cinematic" - the scores by Roy Webb to Val Lewton's great series of horror films in the 1940s.  Those had strings sections that would be Chamber Strings alone, at most.  Tiny, yet the best string scoring of that time, beautifully impressionistic scores for "Cat People," "Seventh Victim" and "I Walked with a Zombie" that are like Debussy in their transparency of sound. 

    But what does it matter?  Nothing.  I just brought those up to show that "cinematic" can mean other things than  current conventions. 

  • B
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    1-OK, I tried my idea and it really didn't add much, if anything, so I agree it is not worth the trouble. 2-About "cinematic strings," I am just using that term as it is currently used popularly; just as people say "classical" music when referring to Baroque, Classical, Romantic, etc.--not an exact term but most people know what you mean. I agree that fabulous film scores have been made with different size sections but a "film section" or "cinema section" is a shorthard term most producers I know interpret as "larger than most symphonies." "Symphony" itself is not an exact term, either. :-) Anyway, you guys were right and my idea didn't turn out well. No big deal--it was just an experiment. (I have used chamber as 2nd violins with orch as 1st, though, and that worked OK. I normally use orch for both 1st and 2nd but slip in chamber for 2nd when the lines cross or hit unisons so I don't get comb filtering.) I am quite satisfied with the solo, chamber, and orchestra sections from VSL and can get by with Hollywood for larger sections until I add Appssionata. Thanks for the comments! Your friend, --The Mighty Konrad
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    Watch carefully... this may be the only useful post I ever make here. :D

    1. Phase Cancellation. 2. Room.

    1. If stacking voices made for bigger sound, all synths would have 20 oscillators. Wanna know what it sounds like when you stack 20 oscillators all playing the same pitch? A home organ.  That's why a B3's tonewheels are all independent: they're like a string section---they sound mostly the same, but not 100%... and their attacks and releases are always different.  Put 2 mics on a huge drum and if you're not careful... again... thin sound. Also, mixing C/S and O/S is like mariachi: ever notice how wimpy trumpet and violin sound unisono? Another facet of phase cancellation... two fat sounds on their own, but their harmonics clash and thus cancel each other out. (It's also the reason we can pick out a solo violin passage in front of a section of violins... our ears are wired to sense the phase cancellation of one guy among many---has to do with how we perceive 'directionality')

     ...oh yeah... studio guys have tried since forever to have 3 or 4 fiddles, singers, whatever, overdub and create large 'sections'. Never works. All you end up with is something analogous to Bohemian Rhapsody. Or that 10-CC song.For rich tone, the ear demands something that only a certain number of different guys (or tonewheels) all at the same place... at the same time... can provide.

    2. In the immortal words of legendary producer Bruce Dickinson, "you gotta explore the space."  Want a bigger sound? Do like the monks... find a better room. I'm always surprised at how big a pit orchestra (< 25 strings) can sound in the right room. Now that they made it like a regular plug in, my next VSL purchase is definitely MIR for that very reason. (I am just gobsmacked at how much it adds--- especially to C/S)

    Maybe you know all this in which case... as Emily Lytella might say...

    Never mind. :D

    PS: @William... thanks for the film suggestions. Very cool!
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    @bhartmann said:

    1-OK, I tried my idea and it really didn't add much, if anything, so I agree it is not worth the trouble.

    Sorry that I didn't have time to reply more fully earlier, but I don't want you to think that there is anything wrong with stacking Orchestral and Chamber strings together. Yes, the sound becomes smaller, but it also gives you those anomalies of tuning, timing, vibrato and that effect where a few players stick out a little from time to time. It will also sound more vibrant, if done well.

    I regularly stack Appassionata, Orchestral and Chamber, so i know that it works, but you just have to be very careful of the relative volumes. That doesn't mean that the relationship has to be in any sense real, or even believable, but as each of these Collections has its own character, the character of the gelatinous whole can be subtly altered very easily.

    PM sent...!

    DG
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    Mighty Konrad - thanks for being much nicer than I am.  Also, as usual DG said it more correctly than I did. Suntower that is a great comment - very interesting point about other similar acoustic situations and you are absolutely right about the space being the main creator of a sense of size.  I remember Dietz saying that the reverb or sound environment is like another musical performer in itself and that really struck me as an essential.

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    I have one other piece of unasked for advice... the kind I absolutely hate so apologies for the hypocrisy.

    I've heard -very- few pieces, from video games to Phil Spector where piling on more guys makes a sound 'richer'.

    76 Trombones is a fabulous song title, but if you want the largest, most startling sounding strings on the planet, just use regular Orchestral Strings... but precede your passage with 20 seconds of solo flute.

    And yes, I know how preachy and unhelpful that just sounded... may you find your Wall Of Sound! Buggering off now..
  • K
    K

     Some of this discussion leaves me slightly confused re the possibilities / consequences of combining the  different string librariies especially re the quote below from Herb's interview discussing the new Dimension Strings:

    "......On the other hand, adding some or all of the new Vienna Dimension Strings violins to the Chamber Strings, Orchestral Strings or Appassionata Strings expands their spectrum, and their possibilities, in a tremendous way. If you look at it that way, Vienna Dimension Strings will provide a huge increase in value for the existing string ensembles."

    I have combined Orchestral and Chamber strings in a large Tchaikovsky string piece - it didn't make the sound smaller but it didn't seem to make it bigger or more lush as I had hoped.

    I appreciate that experimentation  and the use of space - especially in MIR - are esential but more clarity in the way libraries can be combined would be really welcome.

    Kanon
  • W
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    That is interesting to hear.  I think that as DG said the complexity is often increased but the size can be made smaller.  But I'd like to hear that piece of yours to listen to the effect.  When I've combined Chamber Strings with Orchestral in particular, it made the Orchestral sound like Chamber, and so became smaller.  So maybe it is a matter of the relative levels.  I've combined solo violin, viola, cello and even bass with either Orchestral or Appassionata a number of time and it was fantastic.  It adds complexity and especially an expressive line to the sound. 

    However all this is changed by Dimension Strings.  I've been experimenting with combinations, and the D. violins combine with all of the other ensembles. Philippe Baylac is doing some great combinations with the Chamber.  I've noticed that Solo violin - including the 2nd (transposed) violin - with D. violins is also a great addition.  On the Vertigo demo I did, I combined Appassionata with a single group of D. Violins.  In the first section, the Appassionata were barely audible, so the divisi could be prominent.  Then, in the ff section later on, the Appassionata were louder than the D. violins.  That piece is an obvious demo of divisi vs. large ensemble since it starts with 6 part divisi pp in the vns., and then unison ff later.

    Anyway, all these combinations are useable in some manner, and it is obvious that the complexity that can be obtained from the various possibilities is becoming huge.

  • Beat KaufmannB
    Beat KaufmannB
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    Hi all

    As always there are coming a lot of words after question.

    I don't try to add more words because all important things are said but two sound examples.

    Here you can follow the sound when you add 3 times chamber strings (- pitched / 0/ +pitched) and orchestrastrings.

    6 + 6 + 6 +14 Strings = 26 in total.

    I personally always mix string libraries.

    Here is an other example (which I showed already once). It fits more to the coming christmas time than to a cinematic battle string part.

    Nevertheless I tried to get a very large string sound.

    You always hear a combination of either the Appassionata Strings with the Solostrings or only the

    Solo Strings (0:50 and more, Quartett or total Solo).

    http://www.musik-produktion-createc.ch/downloads/createc_mix2.mp3

    This example may also show, that it is very important how strings are mixed for getting a large (cinematic) sound.

    In the upper case I made the Appassionatas darker with a nice warm EQ (one could do it even more) and put them into a nice hall...

    Further the larger the ensemble the farther away it sounds.

    Other tricks: You also can increase the size of an orchestra by placing the 2nd violins to the right, adding a choir to the violins, ...

    Let your cinematic strings play here and tell us how you did it...

    Yours

    Beat

    PS. There is also an example in the end of the video with the first link with14 Orchestra Strings + 1 Solo Violin.The example doesn't really sound how 15 Strings would do... 😉...

    - Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/
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     That helps Beat - thanks.

    Also a good advertisment for your tutorials [;)]

    Kanon
  • Beat KaufmannB
    Beat KaufmannB
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    [quote=kanon]Also a good advertisment for your tutorials

    Thanks as well.

    Evene if I sold 3 345 987 Tutorials I still can't buy windows for "closing" my house.

    I need to sell another 2 000 000 in minimum. So forgive me to help VSL users to achieve successful results.

    Happy VSLusers means getting windows befor the first snowfall on my side...

    And... I agree totaly with [;)]

    So take it [H]

    Beat

    - Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/
  • B
    B
    Very interesting conversation, guys. I did find that Orch + Chamber didn't do a lot for me; however, I don't necessarily agree with all the comments here. Some have said that adding more layers or more oscillators or whatever doesn't make the sound bigger, but I think we all agree that the Orch sample of 14 violins sounds like more players than the chamber section of 6 which sounds bigger than the solo sample. :-) I will say that I learned long ago that combining several bad synth sounds did make one good sound! Instead of the good qualities of each coming out, it always seemed like the bad features just compounded! This is definitely NOT a problem with VSL, however, which has pristine samples. Anyway, it's all good and this was just a random idea I had. I have orch, chamber, and solo and also have Hollywood, so I am pretty well covered. I plan to add Appassionata but it is not urgent compared to other purchases right now. Thanks again for the great dialog!
  • M
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    ??? Doesn't make sense to me. More is more :) Dimension Strings with any of the other libraries = [Y]

    Plus any of the other libraries with each other, also makes more. Chamber and Solo with anything, properly mixed, gives you that realistic attack - use the pitch humanize feature - works great!
  • W
    W

    Yeah despite my evil twin's previous pronouncements you probably can get a larger sound by stacking anything because it can be perceived as larger since it is more complex. 

    Maybe what should have been said was the levels have to be very carefully adjusted because if the smaller ensemble dominates too much, it will make everything sound smaller.  So blending them right with both level and placement/reverb is important to get that larger sound. Also, using humanize differences between them.
  • N
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    Try to combine Orchestral Strings and Dimension Strings, you will get a much better result than using Orchestral and Chamber Strings. It does never work like an additional concept of instruments. Use for Room modulation MIR Pro, you do not need anything else.

    If VSL is releasing the Violas, Celli and Bassi soon for Dimension Strings, you can make your sound bigger for String Orchestra.

    Good luck!