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Dimension Strings: Legatos
Last post Thu, Apr 27 2017 by tek0010, 12 replies.
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Posted on Tue, Dec 04 2012 11:16
by Trailerman
Joined on Wed, Jun 14 2006, Manchester, UK, Posts 609

Hi

I'm generally loving Dimesnsion strings, but am having a few issues with the legatos.   No matter how I program them, I get a distinct pulsing between notes, rather than a smooth transition.  

I don't know if this is a programming issue or just a characteristic of this library, or maybe a bug in the patches, but instead of hearing smooth legato transitions on any of the perf-leg patches, I hear each note stop and the next note start very clearly - almost like a detache.  In fact I get smoother transitions if I use a sus or long detache patch.

The portamento patches transition beautifully between notes, but the straight legatos  ... well, they don't seem to be very legato.  I've tried the regular patches, open strings etc. but they all perform the same way, whether individual players or the full string group.  If I compare them to say the Appassionata or straight Orchestral String legatos, the transitions are nothing like as smooth.

Is this just me, might there be a bug, is it perhaps a byproduct of having different fingering positions and I need to program each transition on its own string in order to get a smoother sound ...?  Could it perhaps be a delay being caused by the more sophisticated scripting, which is interupting the transition?

Don't mean to be critical, but I'm almost surprised nobody else has mentioned it yet.  Thanks for any suggestions or feedback.

Jules

System 1:

Windows 7 64bit
16 core, 3.4GHz E5-2687W, 128GB Ram,
Nuendo 6.5 / Nuendo 7.020 / Cubase 7.5 / Cubase Pro 8
Motu 2408 Mk III x 3

System 2:

Mac Pro Mid 2010
12 core, 3GHz, 32GB Ram,
OS 10.7.4
Seagate ES and Intel Solid State Drives
ProTools HDX, 11.3
Digidesign 192 Interfaces x6

System 3:

CPU: 2xIntel W5580 Xeon Nehalem S1366
Motherboard: Supermicro X8DT3-LN4F
RAM: 96GB ECC RAM in SUPERO 4GB modules (ECC-R DR340LER13)
OS: Windows 7 Ultimate (64 bit)
Audio Hardware: RME HDSPe AIO PCIe
Hard Drives: 2x1.5TG Seagate ES (SATA)
1x2TB Seagate ES (SATA)
1x1.5TB Seagate ES (SAS)
MIDI: Midi Over Lan CP 3
Output Format: Stereo
Sample Rate: 44.1KHz clocked from external wordclock master
Graphics: Gainward 9500GT 512MB PCIe


Posted on Tue, Dec 04 2012 11:37
by herb
Joined on Mon, Aug 05 2002, Posts 4622

Are you working in polyphonic or mono legato mode, velocity Xfade on/off, whole ensemble performing or using any instruments as solo instruments?

Maybe you can send us an audio example. Generally the legatos should be more smoother than any other string library we've produced.

At least that's my experience working with Dimension Strings, I usually don't have to adjust anything after recording a simple live performance on a keyboard.

best

Herb

Posted on Tue, Dec 04 2012 11:48
by Trailerman
Joined on Wed, Jun 14 2006, Manchester, UK, Posts 609

Hi Herb

I'm using the standard "Large Set L2' presets within VI Pro (I've tried the 8 individual players and 'All Violins' presets) .  From what I can see, these load with Vel XFade off and function monophonically.

I will record a short arpeggio with Dim Strings and Appassionata to try and illustrtate the issue and post a link shortly.

Thanks for your help.  If you're saying these should be the smoothest yet, then there's clearly an issue here.

Regards

Jules

System 1:

Windows 7 64bit
16 core, 3.4GHz E5-2687W, 128GB Ram,
Nuendo 6.5 / Nuendo 7.020 / Cubase 7.5 / Cubase Pro 8
Motu 2408 Mk III x 3

System 2:

Mac Pro Mid 2010
12 core, 3GHz, 32GB Ram,
OS 10.7.4
Seagate ES and Intel Solid State Drives
ProTools HDX, 11.3
Digidesign 192 Interfaces x6

System 3:

CPU: 2xIntel W5580 Xeon Nehalem S1366
Motherboard: Supermicro X8DT3-LN4F
RAM: 96GB ECC RAM in SUPERO 4GB modules (ECC-R DR340LER13)
OS: Windows 7 Ultimate (64 bit)
Audio Hardware: RME HDSPe AIO PCIe
Hard Drives: 2x1.5TG Seagate ES (SATA)
1x2TB Seagate ES (SATA)
1x1.5TB Seagate ES (SAS)
MIDI: Midi Over Lan CP 3
Output Format: Stereo
Sample Rate: 44.1KHz clocked from external wordclock master
Graphics: Gainward 9500GT 512MB PCIe


Posted on Tue, Dec 04 2012 12:41
by Trailerman
Joined on Wed, Jun 14 2006, Manchester, UK, Posts 609

Hi Herb

Links are below - 2 very basic examples (probably best to use right-click/save as I didn't zip them).  In each case Appassionata Violins play first, followed by Dimension Violins (8 individual players playing together).  Midi files in each case are identical, no reverb or other processing.  Both are using standard perf-leg patch with Vel Xfade disabled.

Example 1

Example 2

Perhaps I'm being overly pedantic here or hearing something others might not.   I'd be very interested in your thoughts or feedback.

Regards

Jules

System 1:

Windows 7 64bit
16 core, 3.4GHz E5-2687W, 128GB Ram,
Nuendo 6.5 / Nuendo 7.020 / Cubase 7.5 / Cubase Pro 8
Motu 2408 Mk III x 3

System 2:

Mac Pro Mid 2010
12 core, 3GHz, 32GB Ram,
OS 10.7.4
Seagate ES and Intel Solid State Drives
ProTools HDX, 11.3
Digidesign 192 Interfaces x6

System 3:

CPU: 2xIntel W5580 Xeon Nehalem S1366
Motherboard: Supermicro X8DT3-LN4F
RAM: 96GB ECC RAM in SUPERO 4GB modules (ECC-R DR340LER13)
OS: Windows 7 Ultimate (64 bit)
Audio Hardware: RME HDSPe AIO PCIe
Hard Drives: 2x1.5TG Seagate ES (SATA)
1x2TB Seagate ES (SATA)
1x1.5TB Seagate ES (SAS)
MIDI: Midi Over Lan CP 3
Output Format: Stereo
Sample Rate: 44.1KHz clocked from external wordclock master
Graphics: Gainward 9500GT 512MB PCIe


Posted on Tue, Dec 04 2012 13:50
by herb
Joined on Mon, Aug 05 2002, Posts 4622

 OK, I could download the files now. Generally it sounds fine to me. Obvious difference is 8 versus 20 instruments, the 8 Dimension Violins offer more detail compared to a section of 20 players. What I would suggest is to perform a least in two different groups of 4 players. Even for unsisono parts when each track is performed slightly different offers much more realism.

best

Herb

Posted on Tue, Dec 04 2012 14:42
by Trailerman
Joined on Wed, Jun 14 2006, Manchester, UK, Posts 609

Hi Herb

Maybe that's what it is - more 'blurring' of the transitions with the bigger section, which makes them sound smoother.  I find I can hear quite a pronounced drop and then swell as the note transitions on the Dimension Violins, which disrupts the flow of the legato, but I guess it's a matter of taste.

Many thanks for listening and for your feedback.

Jules

System 1:

Windows 7 64bit
16 core, 3.4GHz E5-2687W, 128GB Ram,
Nuendo 6.5 / Nuendo 7.020 / Cubase 7.5 / Cubase Pro 8
Motu 2408 Mk III x 3

System 2:

Mac Pro Mid 2010
12 core, 3GHz, 32GB Ram,
OS 10.7.4
Seagate ES and Intel Solid State Drives
ProTools HDX, 11.3
Digidesign 192 Interfaces x6

System 3:

CPU: 2xIntel W5580 Xeon Nehalem S1366
Motherboard: Supermicro X8DT3-LN4F
RAM: 96GB ECC RAM in SUPERO 4GB modules (ECC-R DR340LER13)
OS: Windows 7 Ultimate (64 bit)
Audio Hardware: RME HDSPe AIO PCIe
Hard Drives: 2x1.5TG Seagate ES (SATA)
1x2TB Seagate ES (SATA)
1x1.5TB Seagate ES (SAS)
MIDI: Midi Over Lan CP 3
Output Format: Stereo
Sample Rate: 44.1KHz clocked from external wordclock master
Graphics: Gainward 9500GT 512MB PCIe


Posted on Tue, Dec 04 2012 14:52
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5640

The Dimension violins are definitely smooth legato, so at first I thought you were using "Global" legato, which can create overlapping notes.  But it seems what you are hearing is simply how strings play legato in reality, which is not uniformly smooth depending on which legato transitions are being heard.  Various notes will be bowed legato, others sul depending on the situation, which will change the audible sliding between notes.  Also, a larger ensemble - especially like the Appassionata strings -  will sound smoother than a smaller one.

Posted on Sat, Apr 22 2017 22:57
by FabioA
Joined on Fri, Jan 13 2012, Posts 89

I fond this very old thread surfing the internet.

I have to say that I agree with both points of view. DS it's incredible in very fast runs. It's really on par with pre-recorded runs sometimes. But at the same time, it seems this library can't perform the most easy legato passage, I mean the normal legato which accours when a violin/violin section play a melody on a single bow. In this case I really agree with Jules. That's probably the only big mistake of this library.

Posted on Sun, Apr 23 2017 01:07
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5640

That is absolutely wrong and you shouldn't post that - there is no "mistake."    The legato is very smooth - listen to the Vertigo demo here and you will hear it.   That goes from the smallest ensemble of 6 players to the largest VSL recorded - Appassionata - and they are both extremely smooth, fluid legato.   

Posted on Sun, Apr 23 2017 01:20
by FabioA
Joined on Fri, Jan 13 2012, Posts 89
Calm down :)
Dimension Strings is my favorite library to date, that's why I don't need to listen to audio samples (but I did listen) because I use DS every day. And I know a bit how real strings sound :)

With a certain amount of reverb, for example with MIR, that issue became less obvious. But it still there. So as I would have prefered a real pianissimo layer in most of the articulations.
Posted on Sun, Apr 23 2017 17:30
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5640

A legato performed by a solo player - which DS is actually composed of, recorded simultaneously  - sounds very different from a massed ensemble, and that is what you are hearing - the actual musically performed and recorded difference. 

I did the Vertigo demo and so that is why I am responding - the legato on DS is fabulous, all individual string players doing their own legato, each different yet all useable as an ensemble or individually - there is nothing in all of music sampling that competes with this!   So don't say there is an "issue."   There is not an "issue" with the legato on these strings.  

 

Unless you are working for a competing company as a shill...  then there is a big issue.  

Posted on Thu, Apr 27 2017 01:56
by tek0010
Joined on Wed, Jun 17 2015, Posts 50

Originally Posted by: William Go to Quoted Post
Unless you are working for a competing company as a shill...  then there is a big issue.

What if you're working as a shill? Would that be a big issue?

I get good results from Dimension Strings legato, but please do not attack the other postsers for having opinions different from yours. That would be an actionable offense.

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