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Dimension Strings - slow leg and fast port presets please ?
Last post Mon, Apr 01 2013 by Conquer, 40 replies.
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Posted on Sat, Mar 30 2013 11:05
by 9u10m
Joined on Thu, Dec 04 2008, Posts 83

I'm very sorry Herb, as much as I think VSL does an incredible work on their libraries and especially the Dimension Violins, I must say that kind of answer is not helping. You might as well add we're all a bunch of ignorant persons.

Best

Posted on Sat, Mar 30 2013 11:11
by herb
Joined on Mon, Aug 05 2002, Posts 4620

 What do you expect? That's my honest opinion.

best

Herb

Posted on Sat, Mar 30 2013 11:16
by herb
Joined on Mon, Aug 05 2002, Posts 4620

strytten wrote:
What does the "start" controller do to the interval. There are two settings and the a slider. Do they truncate part of the interval? The front part or the back part?
 

Yes, you can shorten the start of the interval moving sample start point up to 50 MS into the interval samples.

Further length of the fade in into the interval samples can be adjusted. (Both setting are available in the Advanced Tab of VI PRO).

With the "Start" controller you simply scale the amount of these settings. Set to 0, nothing is altered, set to 127 exacxtly the settings applied in the advance tab will be performed.

best

Herb

Posted on Sat, Mar 30 2013 11:46
by 9u10m
Joined on Thu, Dec 04 2008, Posts 83

We care about and respect your thoughts, Herb. It's the dismissive aspect of your answer that I personally feel less comfortable with.

This thread is now 2 pages long, it seems many customers are asking for more flexibility regarding the portamento articulation.

Your honest opinion is one thing, VSL trusting us to help improve some of its products is another. 'Please look into it' is all we're asking, and I think it's legitimate.

I for one like the legato as it is in Dimension Violins by the way. I think it sounds very natural, especially in conjunction with other perf articulations like pLeV and rPo. I only wish we had more options with it length-wise, without resorting to time consuming tweaking. Then again, the lack of freedom with portamento is the more important issue in my opinion.

Thank you :)

Best

Posted on Sat, Mar 30 2013 12:20
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
9u10m wrote:

We care about and respect your thoughts, Herb. It's the dismissive aspect of your answer that I personally feel less comfortable with.

This thread is now 2 pages long, it seems many customers are asking for more flexibility regarding the portamento articulation.

Your honest opinion is one thing, VSL trusting us to help improve some of its products is another. 'Please look into it' is all we're asking, and I think it's legitimate.

I for one like the legato as it is in Dimension Violins by the way. I think it sounds very natural, especially in conjunction with other perf articulations like pLeV and rPo. I only wish we had more options with it length-wise, without resorting to time consuming tweaking. Then again, the lack of freedom with portamento is the more important issue in my opinion.

Thank you :)

Best

I think you misunderstood. Herb was responding to my (and Jules') comments. I don't think he was dismissing any of the previous comments. Certainly having been a member of this forum for 9 years, I have never seen him dismiss any comments, without careful thought and explanation.

However, the Portamento issue may be the most important thing to you, but it is a non-issue to me. In fact I dare say that in the time it has taken you to post about it, I could have already created all the different Presets that I need.  Wink

Regarding length of transition for legato, I think that there are a few misunderstandings. This idea about different speeds of transition is mostly related to sample use and technology. It has very little to do with String playing. There is no such thing as a slow transition, unless the players are not playing together. What happens in real life, is that there is usually a dip down in volume when the note changes, due to the fact that many players use a kind of portato bowing when they change note, rather than a real slur. Therefore, the transition seems slower, when in fact it's just softer for a few milliseconds. If you want this sort of legato, just dip the Velocity xFade down as you change note, and the result will be the same. You will also find that as the notes change, the vibrato will stop and start again, so this also needs to be taken care of, in order to get the feeling of a slower transition. This last point is not valid with fast playing, because there will be no vibrato anyway.

I hope that this helps.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Sat, Mar 30 2013 12:21
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
herb wrote:

DG wrote:
I agree with that. In fact, I would go further. I think that the legatos need to be re-edited, because I don't think that they are of the same quality as the rest of VSL String libraries.
 

Interesting, because for me the DS legatos work better than any other string collection we have produced.

best

Herb

I can see that this is a subject for discussion the next time I am in Vienna. Wink

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Sat, Mar 30 2013 12:54
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5584

I am puzzled by this thread. 

Having used all the string libraries, Solo, Chamber, Orchestral, Appassionata and now Dimension, I recently did one of the most extreme examples in film music of legato strings - Vertigo's Scene d'amour.   This is the greatest string writing ever done for a movie.  And it features violin legato more than any other musical articulation. 

Using the Dimension Violins on this was simply FABULOUS!  I absolutely loved the legato sound of the violins - it was molto espressivo and very connected, fluid,  beautiful, and the complexity of slightly mistimed transitions added to the realism to an uncanny degree.  And this is in comparison to ALL the other string libraries. 

Also, I had programmed the Grieg "Last Spring" for the Appassionata/Orchestral strings, and then reprogrammed it recently for the Dimension violins.  They sound as good or better in legato. 

True, Appassionata has some more extreme portamento, mainly because it is a huge sweeping fluid sound of  twenty players on one note. Also, if more samples/programming tweaks are added that is always good.   But I simply never heard any problem with legato, and in fact think it is amazingly beautiful in the Dimension violins. 

Posted on Sat, Mar 30 2013 16:45
by garylionelli
Joined on Wed, Jul 09 2003, Los Angeles, Posts 383

I understand the comparisons to live strings as mentioned by some, and I understand William's point with his work on Vertigo and I agree with it all. However, if I have a piece where there's an exposed single string part, be it a violin or cello melody, I feel the regular VSL legato can at times not be lyrical enough, and the portamentos are simply too much. We need variations in-between. So, as I've said so many times, I've created these variations with time-stretching. But I wish I didn't have to do this.


Before VSL released their Dimension Strings, I thought to myself that they must be working on something very special and that it would include the most advanced legato programming on the market. I thought they would push the envelope beyond what all the other libraries were doing, given that that's always been the nature of their work. So of course I was very disappointed when they released Dimension Strings and it had the same old legato as all their other libraries have had for the past 10 years. What this says to me that they have a certain philosophy about how legato should be done (after all, they invented it!), and they are sticking to it. There's nothing wrong with that whatsoever -- and in fact it's commendable -- however in my opinion they're behind the curve in the legato department, and need to make advances with the technology to keep pace with other libraries are out there. I have all the other latest string libraries from other manufacturers, and I truly believe they fall short of VSL in every area except for legato. The quality control of the VSL libraries blows away everything else I've tried. Period. VSL doesn't released half-baked libraries with updates having to be made for glaring errors such as tuning, tonal and volume irregularities, sloppiness, etc. So, given how great VSL is in my opinion, and so many others, I would hope they would find a way to give us true variable legato transition times, that perhaps goes beyond the Band-Aid fix of time-stretching, and that is integrated into the Vienna Instruments Pro player for all their libraries, past and present (or more realistically, present and future).
Pro Tools Ultimate, Avid MTRX, Mac Pro 3.5 Ghz 6-Core (2014) 64 GB RAM, Mac OS Mojave, Samsung T5 SSDs
Posted on Sat, Mar 30 2013 16:58
by 9u10m
Joined on Thu, Dec 04 2008, Posts 83

Spot on ^

Posted on Sat, Mar 30 2013 17:20
by Conquer
Joined on Thu, Sep 28 2006, Posts 812

I haven't found any legato problems with DS. If anyone here would care to list a problematical note transition they have experienced within a certain patch (as opposed to general criticisms), I'd be happy to see if I can replicate it.

Posted on Sat, Mar 30 2013 17:27
by garylionelli
Joined on Wed, Jul 09 2003, Los Angeles, Posts 383

I haven't found any problematic transitions either, like I said, their quality-control is great.

Pro Tools Ultimate, Avid MTRX, Mac Pro 3.5 Ghz 6-Core (2014) 64 GB RAM, Mac OS Mojave, Samsung T5 SSDs
Posted on Sat, Mar 30 2013 18:30
by Trailerman
Joined on Wed, Jun 14 2006, Manchester, UK, Posts 609

Garylionelli

What an eloquent and diplomatically worded post.   I could not have put it better, and I totally second your thoughts and senitments.   VSL's QC is second to none - I've honestly never found a bad transition or a tuning issue in any of their libraries (I have most of them).

The issue is one of style, technical evolution and flexibility.  Legato programming is an area of the market that Vienna should own, and at the moment, it's not quite happening IMHO.   I fully accept that part of this comes down to personal taste, and that the small section size in Dim Strings also has a bearing, but I can't help feeling that if enough users are not wowed by the sound, then it might be worth looking at.

Conquer, I think you many have misunderstood the message being conveyed.  Nobody is suggesting any transitions are broken.

System 1:

Windows 7 64bit
16 core, 3.4GHz E5-2687W, 128GB Ram,
Nuendo 6.5 / Nuendo 7.020 / Cubase 7.5 / Cubase Pro 8
Motu 2408 Mk III x 3

System 2:

Mac Pro Mid 2010
12 core, 3GHz, 32GB Ram,
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Seagate ES and Intel Solid State Drives
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System 3:

CPU: 2xIntel W5580 Xeon Nehalem S1366
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Posted on Sat, Mar 30 2013 23:51
by Conquer
Joined on Thu, Sep 28 2006, Posts 812

Hi Trailerman, DG's statement "I don't want to hear holes between start and destination notes, and lumpy transitions" suggested to me that something was broken.

Posted on Sun, Mar 31 2013 01:15
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5584

 

herb wrote:

DG wrote:
I agree with that. In fact, I would go further. I think that the legatos need to be re-edited, because I don't think that they are of the same quality as the rest of VSL String libraries.
 

Interesting, because for me the DS legatos work better than any other string collection we have produced.

best

Herb

This is exactly what I thought about Dimension violins as soon as I heard the sound, which is why I don't understand this bizarre thread. 

I will post some more music instead of blabbering. 

Posted on Sun, Mar 31 2013 09:26
by Trailerman
Joined on Wed, Jun 14 2006, Manchester, UK, Posts 609

I'm very glad you removed your original comment William.  Don't know if that was a sudden rush of blood to the head, but it was just way off the mark.

Most if not all of the people posting here with concerns, are absolute VSL devotees, not to mention a number who are involved in VSL's own QC system, so the suggestion that we/they are paid trolls is ridiculous.  Believe it or not, there are lost of furms where the debate and the motives are absolutely genuine.  I consider this to be one of them.

Jules

System 1:

Windows 7 64bit
16 core, 3.4GHz E5-2687W, 128GB Ram,
Nuendo 6.5 / Nuendo 7.020 / Cubase 7.5 / Cubase Pro 8
Motu 2408 Mk III x 3

System 2:

Mac Pro Mid 2010
12 core, 3GHz, 32GB Ram,
OS 10.7.4
Seagate ES and Intel Solid State Drives
ProTools HDX, 11.3
Digidesign 192 Interfaces x6

System 3:

CPU: 2xIntel W5580 Xeon Nehalem S1366
Motherboard: Supermicro X8DT3-LN4F
RAM: 96GB ECC RAM in SUPERO 4GB modules (ECC-R DR340LER13)
OS: Windows 7 Ultimate (64 bit)
Audio Hardware: RME HDSPe AIO PCIe
Hard Drives: 2x1.5TG Seagate ES (SATA)
1x2TB Seagate ES (SATA)
1x1.5TB Seagate ES (SAS)
MIDI: Midi Over Lan CP 3
Output Format: Stereo
Sample Rate: 44.1KHz clocked from external wordclock master
Graphics: Gainward 9500GT 512MB PCIe


Posted on Sun, Mar 31 2013 09:52
by Conquer
Joined on Thu, Sep 28 2006, Posts 812

I admire the civilised tone of this forum, and am glad that most participants have the grace to "agree to disagree" when conflicts of opinion arise. I feel the DS legatos are the equal of the legatos in all the other VSL string libraries (which I own), and while I respect other users' opinions on their usability, I am very surprised that anyone would suggest they are in some way below par. In my book, they are the best in the business and work superbly well.

At the risk of straying slightly off topic, one thing I particularly like about VSL legato patches (and this applies to all the instrument families) is that if you sustain a note and rapidly reiterate a second note, you get a trill-like effect as the sustained note continually re-sounds. The same technique can be used to create very realistic grace notes. How many other orchestral libraries offer that particular legato facility?

Posted on Mon, Apr 01 2013 02:56
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5584
Trailerman wrote:

I'm very glad you removed your original comment William.  Don't know if that was a sudden rush of blood to the head, but it was just way off the mark.

Most if not all of the people posting here with concerns, are absolute VSL devotees, not to mention a number who are involved in VSL's own QC system, so the suggestion that we/they are paid trolls is ridiculous.  Believe it or not, there are lost of furms where the debate and the motives are absolutely genuine.  I consider this to be one of them.

Jules

Posted on Mon, Apr 01 2013 10:02
by Philippe BAYLAC
Joined on Thu, Sep 01 2011, France, Posts 335

Hi William,

do you mean http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/t/34656.aspx ?

Best.

Phil.

Posted on Mon, Apr 01 2013 15:53
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5584
Philippe BAYLAC wrote:

Hi William,

do you mean http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/t/34656.aspx ?

Best.

Phil.

Yes, ha-ha, wrong link.  I now only respond with music.  No words.  However this went wrong so an explanation is needed. 

By the way this Forum should only allow replies in music.  That way it will stay completely civilized.  Though it might get a little loud.  

Posted on Mon, Apr 01 2013 18:14
by Conquer
Joined on Thu, Sep 28 2006, Posts 812

F#!

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