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Posted on Sat, Feb 09 2013 16:58
by Rolf_Music
Joined on Tue, Feb 05 2013, Posts 82
I just called steinberg and they said that is something I have to discuss with your company. Does VSL warrant my Vienna license on a Steinberg Key that is under warranty? Also where exactly is the Official and legal information regarding replacement pricing should the key somehow break.

Im thinking of buying my first full vienna products which is why im asking this.
Posted on Sat, Feb 09 2013 17:24
by Rolf_Music
Joined on Tue, Feb 05 2013, Posts 82
I already emailed the support and suggested that VSL should better apply the information so that new customers like me are informed.

Much information is missing regarding licenses.

I have read this 3 days ago and similar topics in other places which is why im still holding off my purchase. LINK:

http://www.gearslutz.com...usiness-practices-2.html
Posted on Sat, Feb 09 2013 17:34
by Rolf_Music
Joined on Tue, Feb 05 2013, Posts 82
I think VSL need a faq like the one from steinberg: https://www.steinberg.ne...ooting/kb_back/2020.html
Posted on Sun, Feb 10 2013 01:20
by mschmitt
Joined on Mon, Jan 01 2007, Posts 154

Excellent question and it seems that VSL has given different answers/deals to different customers. There are a few threads about this on the forums. Here is one:

http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/t/25480.aspx?PageIndex=1

A few years ago I lost my usb dongle during a move and VSL offered to replace the licenses for 50% of the retail price of everything I owned! There was no way I was going to pay that for products that I had already purchased. Luckily after more then a week of tearing my home apart I found my USB dongle, but this experience has really held me back from making any more large purchases from VSL. Even though I would really like to.

Also, VSL only warranties their USB dongle for two years. So if it stops working after two years, they are going to charge you for new licenses, just like if you lost your dongle! In one of the threads, someone from VSL explained this.

Full Cube and lots of other stuff
Posted on Sun, Feb 10 2013 03:26
by emspace
Joined on Sat, Oct 03 2009, Posts 53

I'm curious about this myself. I'm a Cubase user so all my VSL licenses are on the same eLicenser that came with Cubase. I've read posts where VSL has recommended getting a new eLicenser every two years to be continually covered under warranty (which I'm totaly fine with; it's cheaper than Zero DownTime for my iLok licenses). What I'm not sure about, though, is if my eLicenser suddenly stopped working one day, who do I send the defective eLicenser to... Steinberg (who owns eLicenser and the license for Cubase) or VSL (who owns the licenses for the VSL products)? My first guess would be Steinberg as they would own the license server (and thus be able to restore licenses), but as someone has mentioned in this thread, they were told to consult VSL instead. Or maybe I should be keeping VSL and Cubase licenses on their own separate eLicenser keys so I can send defective keys back to their respective owners?

I really don't know what the offcial answer is. Confused

Posted on Sun, Feb 10 2013 08:09
by Rolf_Music
Joined on Tue, Feb 05 2013, Posts 82
The 50% when a key is lost seems to be fine although even after 4 days of asking questions per email I havent been informed about it eventhough I asked all this.

What I have been told from vsl per email is this: "If the warranty period is already over, it might be necessary to purchase replacement licenses for EUR 20.00 per license (Minimum fee EUR 30.00.)"

Now you say they wanted you to pay 50% when the key broke and VSL support tells me for 20.00 per license. Also I have been told that within warranty the replacement is free of charge. However without extraneous cause. What exactly do they count as being "extraneous"? Where is all the official information like steinberg has on their site regarding keys? Im reading new and different stories everywhere and I really want to purchase my first Solo Strings, MIR Pro and VI Pro from vienna because I think the product demos sound great. By the way, I asked VSL what happens if the company goes bankrupt or out of business and what I also have been told per email is that if the company goes out of business we get permanent activation codes (like Native Instruments would). Now i basically will use VSL for my musical career you could say and in these days where the euro crisis affects entire europe I think my question would be very valid. Again I dont know where exactly this is stated in the EULA, or where all the other license information is. I am really new here and I think VSL would work better if everything was more transparent.
Posted on Sun, Feb 10 2013 17:04
by MassMover
Joined on Mon, Sep 29 2008, Posts 236

They did not want to make him pay 50% when his key was BROKE, instead, his key was considered LOST.

Posted on Sun, Feb 10 2013 18:18
by Rolf_Music
Joined on Tue, Feb 05 2013, Posts 82
Ok I just searched around and I did notice that topics like mine were ignored before. I already wondered why Michael Hula didnt answer my question of why various things are not mentioned in the terms, website, EULA. I assume the VSL team is not allowed to answer to those questions. The only problem is that it makes things seem as if new customers shouldnt be informed until the product is purchased. However, morality and democracy dont really play a role in business and VSL can do whatever they want. However, usually companies at least have some sort of legal information. Maybe the price of a replacement key, lost key, broken key etcetera is subject to change depending on the individual. So if you are Hanz Zimmer you might end up paying much more. Thus not stating the price allows for maximum flexibility.
Posted on Sun, Feb 10 2013 18:31
by Rolf_Music
Joined on Tue, Feb 05 2013, Posts 82
In any case VSL is a great library developer and I can only say that I can only recommend it over any other library. Honestly if I knew how great VSL is I would never have purchased other orchestral libraries.
Posted on Sun, Feb 10 2013 23:40
by mschmitt
Joined on Mon, Jan 01 2007, Posts 154
Rolf_Music wrote:
The 50% when a key is lost seems to be fine....

If you had to pay $1,000 just to be able to use the $2,000 of software you had already paid for you might not feel that way.

Rolf_Music wrote:
"If the warranty period is already over, it might be necessary to purchase replacement licenses for EUR 20.00 per license (Minimum fee EUR 30.00.)"

Keep in mind that each instrument from each of the non SE collections require their own license. For example if you bought Orchestral Strings 1 standard and extended, that would be a total of four licenses. This could get very expensive if your dongles for the cube get stolen or stop working.

Full Cube and lots of other stuff
Posted on Mon, Feb 11 2013 04:44
by Rolf_Music
Joined on Tue, Feb 05 2013, Posts 82
So for orchestral strings that would be 80 dollars. How many licenses does each of the full collections hold anyways? I wish there was some full information about this somewhere since I always want to be prepared for everything. What actually confused me is why they say minimum 20.00 dollars. Does the price vary for each type of replacement license mschmitt_25212 (software & library)? or does it increase depending on the individual and how much his income with VSL products is?
Posted on Wed, Feb 13 2013 19:21
by mschmitt
Joined on Mon, Jan 01 2007, Posts 154

It's my understanding that (outside of the SE collections) each instrument in a collection has it's own license and the extended version of that instrument is an additional license.

I don't know what the replacement cost would be when it comes to MIR and other software.

I really wish VSL would come up with a very clear and reasonable way to replace our licenses if our dongle is broken, lost, or stolen. And have a clear explanation of it.

From the posts I've seen here and on other forums over the past few years, it seems that VSL's replacement policy has been very arbitrary with some people only having to pay an amount per license, while others were charged 50% of the retail price of their products. (I maybe mistaken, but it seems like in the past 1 -2 years someone posted here that his dongle stoped working, but because it was past the two year warranty period VSL was going to charge him 50% for new licenses.)

Because of all of the confusion of VSL's replacement policy, I've actually held off on buying any additional libraries or expensive software, even though I can afford the cube, VE Pro, and MIR. I'm not going to shell out that kind of money and then end up being charged hundreds to thousands of dollars if their anti-piracy system fails, breaks, gets lost or is stollen.

Full Cube and lots of other stuff
Posted on Tue, Feb 19 2013 22:17
by Samadhi
Joined on Sat, Feb 12 2011, Spain, Posts 35
Ufff, each time I read a post about the eLicenser, I end up with a very uneasy feeling. Maybe I'm wrong, or maybe it is my ignorance about the matter but, is there not a better way to protect against piracy? I'm sure that people who is able to develop so smart and high quality products as VSL does, is able to find a better anti-piracy system. Call me paranoid but I find it relatively easy to get your dongle damaged, or lost or stolen, and paying again for something you've already paid when there are more user-friendly alternatives in the market...
Posted on Wed, Feb 20 2013 13:15
by Rolf_Music
Joined on Tue, Feb 05 2013, Posts 82
See losing the dongle like losing your credit card and IDs. You just have to take care not to lose it. Just keep it safe and you are fine.
Posted on Wed, Feb 20 2013 13:39
by mschmitt
Joined on Mon, Jan 01 2007, Posts 154
Rolf_Music wrote:
See losing the dongle like losing your credit card and IDs. You just have to take care not to lose it. Just keep it safe and you are fine.

No it's not. If I lose my credit card, my lost one is deactivated and my credit card companys sends me a new one for free, because they value my business. To get a lost ID repcaled is inexpensive, and IDs don't cost $2,000 or more to begin with.

Full Cube and lots of other stuff
Posted on Wed, Feb 20 2013 14:13
by Samadhi
Joined on Sat, Feb 12 2011, Spain, Posts 35
mschmitt wrote:
Rolf_Music wrote:
See losing the dongle like losing your credit card and IDs. You just have to take care not to lose it. Just keep it safe and you are fine.

No it's not. If I lose my credit card, my lost one is deactivated and my credit card companys sends me a new one for free, because they value my business. To get a lost ID repcaled is inexpensive, and IDs don't cost $2,000 or more to begin with.



That's it. And things in life are never as easy as "keep it secret, keep it safe!"
Posted on Thu, Feb 21 2013 14:24
by Stefan
Joined on Tue, Oct 10 2006, Posts 524

Dear all,

Generally it is important to distinguish between a lost ViennaKey and a broken ViennaKey.

Additionally to the official information in our Terms of License (§5 and §6), here's a summary of how we handle the unfortunate case a ViennaKey (or any other eLicenser USB key) is reported as lost or broken:

If a ViennaKey breaks within the warranty period (two years) without extraneous cause, the user gets a new ViennaKey and the new license(s) free of charge. That's why we recommend to purchase a new key every two years. The two year warranty starts with the date of purchase of the ViennaKey, so please store your invoice at a safe place. 

In case the warranty period has expired, or if the user damages a ViennaKey, he will of course have to pay for the new ViennaKey and a handling fee for the new license(s) (EUR 20 per contained license). This fee is necessary as we ourselves also have to pay fees to eLicenser for every replacement license we issue.

Broken eLicenser USB keys other than ViennaKeys will have to be returned to the respective issuing company, in regards to warranty claims for the key. As for the licenses however, we don't distinguish if VSL licenses are on a broken/lost ViennaKey or another eLicenser USB key.

In case of a lost license, we meet our users halfway in this situation by replacing the license for 50% of the full price in case they're not insured.

If a lot of licenses are on a broken or lost key, we'll find a solution on an individual basis with the user.

The quickest and easiest temporary solution if you find yourself in an unfortunate situation like this is to buy a new ViennaKey (or other eLicenser USB key). We can then send you a demo license which enables you to bridge at least some time until the order of the replacement license is processed. Of course it's not a bad idea to have a spare key in your studio, to ensure that you have no downtime at all in the event of a lost or broken key.

While we totally understand that both scenarios are a cause for concern, we do our best to help customers that find themselves in this unfortunate situation in every way we can, while at the same time protecting our (and your!) investment in our products. We HAVE to make sure that there are no possibilities for fraud when users report to have lost or damaged their key.

Many ideas for improvement have been discussed in previous threads, and we are considering all technically and legally possible improvements together with the provider of this protection system, eLicenser (owned by Steinberg). The description above explains our current position.

Best,

Stefan

Stefan Steinbauer
Sales Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Fri, Feb 22 2013 00:46
by mschmitt
Joined on Mon, Jan 01 2007, Posts 154

Hi Stefan,

Thanks for your reply. I have a few questions for you that I hope you can answer.

Stefan wrote:

If a ViennaKey breaks within the warranty period (two years) without extraneous cause, the user gets a new ViennaKey

What exactly is an "extraneous cause"? The only things I could see happening to a ViennaKey would be that it either suffers a hardware failure or the user breaks it. I see in the next paragraph you mention user damage, is that what you mean by "extraneous cause"?

I think you should email everyone a few months before their two year warranty expires, so they know to purchase new keys. I only knew about this policy because I keep up on the forums. However a few of my friends that use your products had no idea and had been using the same key for several years. It's not intuitive to think that if a companies security device fails after two years, that the end user would have to pay additional fees in order to use the software they already paid for. In fact all of the other software companies I've dealt with have been really helpful in replacing licenses after hard drive failures, even years after I purchased their products and never charged me a cent.

Stefan wrote:

In case the warranty period has expired, or if the user damages a ViennaKey,
he will of course have to pay for the new ViennaKey and a handling fee
for the new license(s) (EUR 20 per contained license). This fee is
necessary as we ourselves also have to pay fees to eLicenser for every replacement license we issue.

Does this include damge caused by fire, flood, or something similiar?

Would each SE collection and software like MIR cost 20 Euros as well?

Also what about software that comes with 3 licenses, would you only need to replace the licenses that were on the damaged dongle, or would all 3 have to be replaced?

Stefan wrote:

In case of a lost license, we meet our users halfway in this situation by replacing the license for 50% of the full price in case they're not insured.

If a lot of licenses are on a broken or lost key, we'll find a solution on an individual basis with the user

Does this apply if your computers and ViennaKeys are stolen and we can supply you with a police report proving that they were stolen. (I use a few of the SE libraries as well as V Suite live on a MacBook Pro, what's kept me from buying the full cube is that I'd have to pay over 2,500 Euros if my ViennaKeys were stolen or lost.)

If licenses are destroyed in a home fire does that count as user damage or lost licenses?

If the user has insurance would you charge retail price to replace the licenses if they were lost?

I know you have to have some copy protection to protect your products from theft, so you can continue to make money and also be able to continue to develope even better products. Also, I don't want other people to use for free the same software I've spent thousands of dollars on. I just wish you would implement some kind of optional dial in copy protection, so that if someone either lost or had their VKeys stolen they would stop working after a given time and we could get new licenses from you without having to pay 50% of the cost of products we allready bought.

Thanks in advance for answering these questions. I know I'm not the only one that has them.

Michael

Full Cube and lots of other stuff
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