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Transposing In Vienna Instruments (Standard, Not Pro)
Last post Wed, Aug 27 2014 by civilization 3, 28 replies.
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Posted on Fri, Mar 22 2013 16:43
by DaddyO
Joined on Tue, May 22 2012, Washington (US State), Posts 448
Transposing seems to only be available in the Advanced tab and on a per matrix cell basis. By that I mean if I want every cell in the matrix to transpose up 2 semitones (as I would for second violins, for example), I have to make the change individually cllicking on every cell in the matrix one at a time.

Is there a way to change the transpose setting for every cell in the matrix at one time? Or is this available only in VI Pro 2? Or not at all?
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Posted on Mon, Mar 25 2013 13:53
by DaddyO
Joined on Tue, May 22 2012, Washington (US State), Posts 448
Bump.
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Posted on Wed, Mar 27 2013 01:08
by DaddyO
Joined on Tue, May 22 2012, Washington (US State), Posts 448
Bump again.

This must be a harder question to answer than I thought! I don't know quite what to make of the lack of a response. I hope I have not phrased the question poorly.
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Posted on Wed, Mar 27 2013 16:23
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 13475

Hi, 

You can use the Pitch Bend Controller throughout the MIDI Channel. 

Best, 

Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Wed, Mar 27 2013 23:08
by DaddyO
Joined on Tue, May 22 2012, Washington (US State), Posts 448
Thanks for responding and for the suggestion, Paul.

Here's a picture showing what I'm trying to accomplish:

http://img534.imageshack...nnainstrumentsadvanc.jpg

Though I've never used Pitch Bend, I think I understand it's use. I've circled what you're suggesting in the linked picture. Wouldn't it be imprecise and hard to use because of the detailed gradations of pitch bend level? It would be quite time-consuming to try to bend the pitch exactly two semitones. It seems like the wrong tool for the job. Perhaps you're just offering this as a possible way of doing what otherwise cannot be done.

What I'm talking about is the "Semitone" transposition field in the Advanced tab (also circled in the linked picture). I can enter "2" in this field and it works fine (provided I use a "-2" setting for the Pitch setting in my DAW track. But so far as I can tell this has to be done individually for each cell in the matrix. I'm wondering if there's a way to make each cell in the matrix have a value of "2" (for example) in the Semitone field without having to deal with each of them individually.

Hope this is clearer. If the answer is no, then it is no, and that's OK. Id rather know it than wonder if I'm needlessly wasting time.

Thanks again,

John
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Posted on Wed, Mar 27 2013 23:40
by herb
Joined on Mon, Aug 05 2002, Posts 4622

 If you plan to transpose all cells within a VI instance you simply should transpose the related track in your sequenzer instead.  The result will be identical.

best

Herb

Posted on Thu, Mar 28 2013 00:33
by Conquer
Joined on Thu, Sep 28 2006, Posts 812

Unfortunately I think the answer is "no". Tongue Tied If this is something you need to do a lot, it might be worth slogging through all the individual cell transpositions and then saving the matrix with a '+2' added to its name. Global transpose is a feature I'd expect to see in a pro sample player, maybe VSL will add it in an update some time...

Posted on Thu, Mar 28 2013 00:59
by herb
Joined on Mon, Aug 05 2002, Posts 4622

 As I wrote in my previous posting: a global transpose is a very simple operation in any sequenzer,

transposing on patch level is useful when different transposed patches are stacked in one VI instance,

and for that szenario a global transpose is useless

best

Herb

Posted on Thu, Mar 28 2013 06:29
by DaddyO
Joined on Tue, May 22 2012, Washington (US State), Posts 448
Thanks, Herb.

What I need to make clear is that I want to transpose UP +2 in the VI Player, and then DOWN -2 in my DAW. That way I get a different sample for, say, a second violin part and avoid phasing issues with the first violins. The same would hold true for other occasions where I need a second instance of the same instrument. Meanwhile, the notation in my sampler reflects the true pitch I want. If I were simply to transpose in my DAW, my notation and my sounding pitch would differ, and I don't want that. Hopefully that clarifies why a simple DAW adjustment will not do.
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Posted on Thu, Mar 28 2013 06:33
by DaddyO
Joined on Tue, May 22 2012, Washington (US State), Posts 448
Thanks, Conquer. I think you must be right. It was worth asking, seeing how I had already done individual cell adjustments and found it quite tedious. If that's my only option, then I'll just live with things doing it that way.

Yes, Global transpose PER CHANNEL would be nice.
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Posted on Thu, Mar 28 2013 09:27
by herb
Joined on Mon, Aug 05 2002, Posts 4622

Just transposing patches up or down in VI will not deliver what you want, you have to use transpose and pitchbend together.

That means, make a global track-transpose in your sequenzer and add also a continous inverse pitchbend data on this sequenzer track. (semi or whole tone step up and picthbend 100 or 200 cent down)

You can set pitchbend range in VI to a semitone or a whole tone, so you just have to set pitchbend to maximum value in the sequenzer track.

best

Herb

Posted on Thu, Mar 28 2013 11:37
by Conquer
Joined on Thu, Sep 28 2006, Posts 812

>I want to transpose UP +2 in the VI Player, and then DOWN -2 in my DAW

As Herb said, one cancels the other so you'd end up with Transpose = 0! The 'transpose' function simply shifts MIDI notes up and down, it doesn't alter the pitch of the samples. To do the '2nd violins different samples trick' you have to use Pitch Bend: transpose the MIDI part -2 semis and (assuming the pitch bend range is set to the default value of 200*) whack up your pitch wheel to maximum to force the notes back to concert pitch.

(* The setting is found under 'Options' - the pitch slider circled in your screenshot just shows the current position of the pitch wheel.)

If you're using a full instrument collection you could also transpose the part -1 semi, set the pitch bend range to 100 and max out the pitch wheel as before. However, doing this with Special Edition instruments is fruitless since they use tone rather than semitone sample mapping - if you're using SE, stick with the -2 transposition. Wink

FWIW, IMO the phasing that occurs when unison 1st and 2nd violins notes play the same sample may not be noticeable within a full arrangement. Another way of avoiding it is to temporarily switch the 2nds to a different, similar-sounding articulation for the note(s) in question.

Posted on Thu, Mar 28 2013 20:06
by DaddyO
Joined on Tue, May 22 2012, Washington (US State), Posts 448
Thanks for persisting in your response, Herb. I'll have to try to digest what your telling me. Sounds like I might have something to learn here.

I'm curious, why will just transposing patches up or down in VI not deliver what I want? Doesn't this change the patch and therefore ameliorate potential phasing problems?

And if not, how does pitch bend give me something different?

These are not challenge questions, I sincerely want to understand what you're telling me.
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Posted on Thu, Mar 28 2013 20:15
by DaddyO
Joined on Tue, May 22 2012, Washington (US State), Posts 448
Hmmm....

Thanks to both Herb and Conquer. Sound like I might have fundamentally misunderstood how to approach that, although I'm sure this is a technique that has been suggested in my general research on the web. Peter Alexander in his training refers to the "transposition trick." I have assumed he was referring to what I have encountered before, which was done the way I'm describing. Perhaps that's not the case.

I'll have to dig into all this further, and if I have any more questions I'll post them here.

By the way, I am limited to the Special Edition Volume 1 Standard at this time.

Again, much thanks for the tutoring.
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Posted on Thu, Mar 28 2013 22:46
by noldar12
Joined on Thu, Dec 04 2008, Posts 582

 DaddyO, the trick Peter was talking about is most likely the one outlined above.  It is actually quite easy, and has been a standard VSL trick for a long time.

There are a couple steps that make it quite easy.  You can do a global setting in the VI for a maximum pitch bend range, generally either one or two semitones depending on whether you are using the full libraries or the SE libraries.

You then set the maximum pitch bend setting in your DAW, again to either one or two semitones, as above.

When you are ready to realize the score, then transpose the part down in your sequencer, and raise the lower pitch back up to concert pitch using the pitch bend.  That ensures that you have different samples playing on any unison notes between the 1st and 2nd violins.  Since the pitchbend has been defined in the sequencer as a half (or whole) step, all you have to do when using the pitchbend, is to raise it to its maximum level.  Since the maximum pitchbend range has been defined to what is specifically needed, the need to be concerned about any fine adjustments has been eliminated.

Posted on Fri, Mar 29 2013 00:07
by Conquer
Joined on Thu, Sep 28 2006, Posts 812

Hi DaddyO, you've almost got it but I think you slightly misunderstand what 'transpose' means in this context. When you transpose down -2 in your DAW, you're making the MIDI notes a tone lower. When you transpose up +2 in the VI player, you're simply moving the MIDI notes (not the samples) back up 2 semis, so the VI is now seeing the notes at concert pitch - not what you intended. The secret is to leave the VI transposition setting at 0, and *pitch bend* the instrument up +2. The VI sees the part a tone lower and so uses different samples, but the samples are bent up +2 into concert pitch. Thus it really is a "transposition trick", but the trick also involves pitch bend! HTH.

If any of that fails to make sense, please say so. This stuff is confusing and everyone here is happy to help. Wink

Posted on Fri, Mar 29 2013 00:57
by noldar12
Joined on Thu, Dec 04 2008, Posts 582

As Conquer said, everyone here is happy to help, so to reiterate his point, please keep asking until you are clear with how to go about the pitch bend technique.

One other comment, especially as this involves the 2nd violins, and the pitch bend is minimal, the tone will remain quite fine enough.  Any "loss" is really minimal, and is a non-issue.  If the technique didn't work well, it would not have the lengthy history that it does.

Posted on Fri, Mar 29 2013 01:18
by DaddyO
Joined on Tue, May 22 2012, Washington (US State), Posts 448
So the way I understand it now, after you guys explaining it clearly to me, is that there is no real-time, as you compose way to implement the trick. The only way to do it is at rendering. Makes sense.

I must have misunderstood this from the get-go back when I first read it. It makes me realize more why many prefer to take other tacks like using layered sounds, other sample sets, or other libraries for these situations.

I appreciate everyone's help.

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Posted on Fri, Mar 29 2013 08:01
by EP
Joined on Wed, Dec 10 2008, Posts 48

As this is apparently how the string libraries work,  I love to see VSL implement a global function that would take care of the pitch bend and transposition for an entire preset. The users should not need tinkering around with their sequencer /notation software to setup the second violin section.

Posted on Fri, Mar 29 2013 14:33
by Conquer
Joined on Thu, Sep 28 2006, Posts 812

>there is no real-time, as you compose way to implement the trick. The only way to do it is at rendering.

DaddyO, here's how I would make the 'transpose trick' work in real time using two MIDI tracks in Logic: Record a 'pitch wheel max' movement (no notes) on MIDI track #1, delete all but the maximum PB value from the event list (or whatever your DAW calls it) and extend the MIDI region manually (ie by dragging its right hand edge) to a large amount of bars.

Set MIDI track #2 to transpose -2: that will transpose all incoming MIDI notes down a tone in real time. Put MIDI track #2 in 'record ready', start playback from the top and play along: the PB you recorded on MIDI track #1 will bend the samples' pitch up a tone in real time for as long as the track is playing, and as you play along at concert pitch through MIDI track #2 you'll hear your second violin part at the right pitch (but using a different set of samples) in real time.

@EP >as this is apparently how the string libraries work, I love to see VSL
implement a global function that would take care of the pitch bend and
transposition for an entire preset. The users should not need tinkering
around with their sequencer / notation software to set up the second violin section.

VSL don't encourage this way of using their libraries because pitch bend makes the sound a little less real - they suggest other methods, such as using a different, similar-sounding articulation, or giving the nominal first and second violins a different reverb / panning treatment. As I said earlier, this only becomes an issue anyway when seconds and firsts play a *unison* note, and even then the phase-related audio artefact that *might* occur (and it might not, if the notes in question were played a few ticks apart) doesn't sound too bad - it's not like a horrible glitch, and you probably won't hear it in a full arrangement.

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