Bow noise in strings collection, help please.

[loudyman]

Hello,

I tried all the week the appassionata strings included in Epic Orchestra (Bundled with VePro 5).

I am in trouble with the bow noise ! I find it really loud in the upper register of the violin !

To get rid of this noise (total), I tried an EQ at ~ 500hz, Q= 6 and gain = -24dB ;
The bow noise is gone, but as intended, the timbre of the violin is totally destroyed........

If I let this noise in and add a reverb, I've got the dry noise + the reverberated noise !!!!
I tried filtering the reverb too without success.

It's not easy because Epic Orchestra is mapped across the keyboard from bass to violin, and when I'm filtering something, every instruments are impacted.

1) The strings of Epic Orchestra are solo instruments, is it the reason of the excessive bow noise ?

2) Is it the same thing with Solo, Orch and App strings big collection ?

3) What can I do to reduce a bit this noise without killing the timbre ?

[noldar12]

The issue you raise has been raised before (and in other forums) and one of the real issues of the physics of a violin is that as the string length gets shorter, and especially in the upper positions on the higher thinner strings, one tends to get additional bow noise and a more strident sound.  There simply is far less string length to vibrate, and the character of the sound changes somewhat.  IMO, the effect is more pronounced on violin than, say, on cello or bass where the strings are thicker, and longer (even in very high thumb position on the bass the tone will be more intense and not as "warm").  The player will compenstate somewhat by moving the bow closer to the bridge as he/she fingers notes farther up the fingerboard to maintain the clarity of the tone.

I cannot speak about the Epic Orchestra patches, as I do not use that library, but for the full solo strings, and even the solo strings in the Special Edition, the amount of bow noise strikes me as being not at all uncommon (the double-bass is my main instrument), and overall, of the libraries I am familiar with, VSL's solo strings sound about as realistic as one will find.  Admittedly, that may not be exactly what you are looking for.

There are many excellent demos of the different libraries on the site, and I would strongly suggest listening to a wide variety of them, for the different VSL strings libraries.  The SE series can be a very good starting point for getting an idea of the overall sound of VSL's products.

[loudyman]

Alright,

Thanks for the answer,

I've listened to a bunch of demos, but I'm still indecisive.

[William]

@loudyman said:

1) The strings of Epic Orchestra are solo instruments, is it the reason of the excessive bow noise ?

No, they are not solo instruments.  They are ensemble.  Also, no excessive bow noise at all. 

[quote=loudyman]

Hello,

I tried all the week the appassionata strings included in Epic Orchestra (Bundled with VePro 5).

I am in trouble with the bow noise ! I find it really loud in the upper register of the violin !

To get rid of this noise (total), I tried an EQ at ~ 500hz, Q= 6 and gain = -24dB ;
The bow noise is gone, but as intended, the timbre of the violin is totally destroyed........

If I let this noise in and add a reverb, I've got the dry noise + the reverberated noise !!!!
I tried filtering the reverb too without success.

It's not easy because Epic Orchestra is mapped across the keyboard from bass to violin, and when I'm filtering something, every instruments are impacted.

1) The strings of Epic Orchestra are solo instruments, is it the reason of the excessive bow noise ?

2) Is it the same thing with Solo, Orch and App strings big collection ?

3) What can I do to reduce a bit this noise without killing the timbre ?

 The bow noise on the different libraries varies, and is natural for the ensemble size.  You will hear almost none on Appassionata, the largest string library, since the recording is of a large ensemble and as a result "backed off" for the size.  On Orchestral, a little, on Chamber more,  on Solo, the most.  But in no way is it too much.  In fact, the bow noise is completely natural sounding.   If you record a solo violin, you will hear huge amounts of bow noise.  So these samples are very correctly equalized to begin with, to give a "taste" of the amount of bow noise natural to the size.   Also, if you place the instrument into MIR or another reverb, you will not need any special EQ as the sound is very accurate in a completely dry state.

[Casiquire]

I agree, I think the best thing to do would be to find a warm-sounding reverb which will cut back a lot of that noise, but otherwise I'd double-check the arrangement. For example, is the modwheel more than halfway up? And if it is, are the strings supposed to be f - fff?

[loudyman]

Thanks for the help guys,

I have now listened and tried (via Try-Sound.com) all the libraries from Solo to App strings, and the noise is here no matter what I'm doing.

The offending noise seems to be even at any velocity and volume.

I agree 100% on realism and the behaviour of the real instrument, but they are recorded so dry/close (which is a good thing in my book),
that close noises are highlighted even when they shouldn't, i.e.:

But in this case, close noises are there in the dry track, no matter what you're doing, and if you add a reverb to this track, noises are also reverberated, which sound unnatural for me.

It's a pity because I really like them, overall, it's just the last 12 or 16 higher notes of the violins that I find really noisy, whether it be solo or big ensemble strings, there are no differences.

I have also relistened to real orchestra stuff, and violins ensemble are not that noisy in the higher register, I don't get it ! 

[Casiquire]

Violins certainly are noisy in a live scenario, but that gets swallowed by the rest of the orchestra.  I've used strings from a total of three of the largest (dry-recorded) sample library companies and the amount of bow noise is roughly equal.  Software such as VSS or even MIR have effects or impulses built in to behave like a real room, softening the effects of that noise a bit, but it really is more present than most people seem to realize so threads like this have come up in each of the three other forums for string libraries that I have access to.

If it's still a major issue for you, a very simple EQ-cut takes care of it.  In my opinion doing so is slightly detrimental to the character of the instrument, though.

[loudyman]

A better solution than a simple EQ to attenuate or even remove this noise is an advanced noise supressor (denoiser), and Izotope RX2 works relatively well.

I was able to reduce / remove this noise by capturing its properties (noise profile), and applying the denoiser on the audio track.

But there's a drawback: if the performance has a huge variation of velocity / Volume or Expression, the denoiser will remove more or less tonal information of the instrument.

I didn't find a better solution for the moment, because as you said an EQ would kill the instrument character and a denoiser, in this case, is more transparent.

Now, I'm trying to find a solution to replace and mimic the velocity / Volume and expression controls once printed to an audio track.

(This way, I can use a static noise profile without major degradation to the instrument)

Maybe with several audio tracks for each velocity layers combined with volume automation ? 

Thanks.

[pudik]

Ludo, The question on hand is a huge issue with all of the string libraries. Some mentioned that when at a distance form the instrument the noise is not so audible. True enough, but without bow noise one doesn't have the tone color of the instrument, period. The problems, especially with violins and violas also come from recording time's A/D conversion when no matter what one does, artifacts will ensue. These will be amplified through the channel. Bow noise is an obligatory parameter of string timbre, it's built in, and is one of the main staples of string sound. To have realistic string sound this bow noise must carry through in any recording/sampling process. Problem is that in this process the bow noise malforms into white noise which is anything but bow noise and one must work extremely hard to filter it out. This new noise gives that harsh, granulated, discontinuous sound to sampled instruments. Some of it can't be filtered out because it's artifact. By the time one filters out what can be filtered (i.e. some of the higher harmonics that stick out for more than one fundamental such as c9 for d6 and c7, that is seventh and 2 x octave) a lot of the timbre of the instrument is lost. You're left with a synthy kernel that's not your violin section sound at all. How nice would it be if VSL (and all of the other libraries) were adorned with a function that generates bow noise that could be tailored to a track that contains filtered violins or violas! Garritan Big Band has an air function which does great at giving a more realistic rendition to its instruments. Of course, even though some of the instruments in this library are quite good, others are not all that great. But then again, it's an inexpensive library. There are quite a few good suggestions in this thread. I had worked on this problems for years. I still haven't solved them. Maybe adopting different technologies to manufacture samples will do. I don't know whether they exist or are developed to be in a usable state. Till this happens, I'll try to combine different libraries which have different strengths. For example, I have VSL Special Edition Strings. To create a sweeping cantabile melodic line, I use violins, violas and cellos on the same melody, put to 3 different tracks. At the beginning I don't use EQing to filter out excessive noise, but to place these three groups at different parts of the frequency spectrum to prevent excessive masking. Unfortunately masking will always occur because of the common spectrums of these instruments. I cut the cellos' lower registers from the lowest note that the violins play to avoid booming and thickening of tone color. The violas will be cut depending on the melody. If the melody is mellow I won't cut too much. If the melody is thinner, I'll cut just like from the cellos. I'll move up the frequency spectrum of the violins an octave from the lowest G if the violas and cellos do a good job in imitating the violins' tone color. I don't add any effect. Now I'll mix in the rest of the instruments and try to create a balanced mix. Only thereafter I'll begin equalizing string noise. This is because individual instruments and sectionals will sound differently when alone as opposed to when they're in a mix. Just like humans. Individually people will behave differently from the event when placed in a crowd. At this point I also add in violins from EWQL Symphonic Orchestra. There are many kinds of violins, so I experiment. Of course, VSL has even more articulations, but I don't have the full VS Library. If not enough bow noise remains after equalization, I add in Harmonics as well (from EWQL) which can simulate bow noise when in a mix. Effects only after I have a satisfyingly balanced mix. These are just suggestions. What works for one may work for only a few others or may not work for anyone else for that matter. Just suggestions. Thanks for reading. J.