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Oboe Vel X Fade Question
Last post Tue, Aug 13 2013 by wrathy, 50 replies.
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Posted on Wed, Jul 31 2013 18:47
by wrathy
Joined on Thu, Dec 04 2008, Posts 12
I am using Oboe one from the WW I collection, the Perf Universal Samples (perf-leg-sus, perf-leg and perf-leg fa)
If I play a phrase using Vel X-Fade, when I start at say 40 all is well, but when you crescendo thru about 100, it seems like I am hearing "two" oboes rather than one. If you release the note you are on (at 100) and re-attack, it seems to go back to "one" oboe. I suppose this is something to do with X-fading between the louder/softer samples. It just seems rather prominent on a number of notes.

Is this user error? Am I doing something incorrectly? Is there something I can/should do to mitigate this?

Thanks for your time and patience.
I love everything VSL!

best.
Posted on Wed, Jul 31 2013 20:02
by gerard kruse
Joined on Sat, Apr 25 2009, Leiden, The Netherlands, Posts 102

Similar behaviour here with the french oboe. A couple of years ago the outcome of a discussion on this forum (or with vsl, I don't remember) was to try to avoid the notes where this happened too prominently,

regards

Gerard

Posted on Wed, Jul 31 2013 21:10
by MassMover
Joined on Mon, Sep 29 2008, Posts 236

Not the notes, but the x-fade velocity values. Usually it is only a very small range in which actually 2 samples are heard. So, say, at vel=70 you hear the mf layer and when you raise the velocity value it simply gets louder, until you reach, say, 95. By further raising the vel value the ff layer comes in, while the mf layer fades out, at a certain point, say, 105 you only hear the ff layer.

All you have to do is to decide, which of the layers matches your desired level of expressiveness, then x-fade either to the highest mf value, or the lowest ff value.

Posted on Wed, Jul 31 2013 21:29
by wrathy
Joined on Thu, Dec 04 2008, Posts 12
The range in which I can detect two samples (or two "players") is pretty wide, I'd say btwn 70-110. That's a pretty large range, seems that's the "meat and potatoes" MF range, no? It mostly just defeats any orchestrational choices, and in my case I can't just "avoid" those notes or re-shape this entire piece's velocity map.

What I was looking for is:
1) Corroboration that I'm not crazy
2) Possible workaround, or "just live with it."

Is there something to be done with the "release" fader? To say fade out sample 1 at X volume whilst sample 2 is coming in?

Thanks again.
And again, not slagging VSL at all, just trying to get a grip on how to pull this off.
Posted on Thu, Aug 01 2013 01:48
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1740
wrathy wrote:
...I am hearing "two" oboes rather than one. If you release the note you are...

Hi

Unfortunately this is correct.

If you increase the level for example X-Velocity mixes the sound from one layer into the next.

Further, becauses this fade needs to be soft is always a part where two layers play the note.

So you are right: There is a part with two oboes so to say. You can't do anything against this effect.

X-Velosity-fade works good with ensemble sounds because there are already more instruments and that's why you can't recognize this blend effect as good as with the solo instruments.

But often this "fault" with solo instruments disappears a bit in the context of a whole orchestra.

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Thu, Aug 01 2013 10:17
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7763
wrathy wrote:
[...]
2) Possible workaround, or "just live with it." [...]

The way these instruments are designed, you're actually supposed to use the real recordings of fp, sfz and the like (a.k.a. "Dynamics"). That way the performance will consist of the most authentic building blocks. ... using crossfades is easier, without doubt. :-)

-> http://www.vsl.co.at/en/211/496/802/819/1096/706.htm

HTH,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Thu, Aug 01 2013 17:36
by wrathy
Joined on Thu, Dec 04 2008, Posts 12
Beat: Thanks for your reply. I have admired your "synth-y-strating" for some time, so it means a great deal to me that responded.

Deitz: I am switching articulations like crazy and making great use of all the different dynamics. BUT if you want a legato line the crescendo's/dim you are going to pass thru this zone of crossfading samples where you can distinctly hear two instruments. I am mocking up a WWind quintet, and there are many exposed passages of solos's, duo's and trio's where this becomes an issue.

Thanks again for the responses. Much appreciated.

best.
Posted on Thu, Aug 01 2013 18:20
by mohurwitzmusic
Joined on Tue, Sep 07 2010, Posts 297

Without sounding like a broken record, I'll once again suggest using Lemur. You can create a multiball that controls Velocity XF on one axis, and Expression on another (as I do on my Youtube video "Composing using Lemur and sample libraries", at around 04:55). That way, you can decide what type of volume automation sounds best. I often use a combination of the two. It's far more than a workaround...it's actually a better way to work. It's great for quiet but heavy brass pads, like those found in Strauss's music. 

HTH

MOH

www.midikinetics.com
Lemur touch controllers for composers and music producers.
Posted on Thu, Aug 01 2013 18:25
by mohurwitzmusic
Joined on Tue, Sep 07 2010, Posts 297

P.S. I agree with Dietz. If you are doing a quintet with lots of exposed solo instruments, you should as much as possible use the dynamics patches. Exposed instruments are the hardest to make sound realistic. I stopped trying...

www.midikinetics.com
Lemur touch controllers for composers and music producers.
Posted on Thu, Aug 01 2013 18:43
by didger
Joined on Sat, Oct 27 2007, Salt Lake City, Posts 68

I'll just echo MOH's comment, not necessarily about Lemur, but just about switching to using expression rather than velocity crossfade when the doubled sample issue bugs you. It's not ideal, but you just have to pick which you can live with.

Posted on Thu, Aug 01 2013 21:39
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1740
mohurwitzmusic wrote:
...P.S. I agree with Dietz. If you are doing a quintet with lots of exposed solo instruments, you should as much as possible use the dynamics patches...

I agree with Dietz as well. And when you support these Dynamic-Samples a bit with the Volume you will get excellent and really natural dynamics.

If you are using VIPro  you are able to adapt the diminuendos and crescendos in the length...

Listen to the example below. It is only played with such dynamic samples...

http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/VSL_New_VI/BK_Bach_BWV_622_O_Mensch_bewein_VI08.mp3

1st part: Solo Strings, Viola (0:00 - 1:11)

2nd part: Solo Solo Strings, all (1:12 - 2:17)

3rd part: Chamberstrings (2:18 - 3:02)

4th part: Orchestra Strings (3:03 - 3:44)

5th part: Appassionata Strings (3:45 - End)

The trick is, that you not always need the whole sample length because...

Normally Diminuendos start with a little crescendo first > so use just this first part of the sample

Or, it is not necessary to use Crescendos until their ends

... it is really a play with all the samples. Important: Don't chose the samples because of their names but because of how they sound.

This is another piece, which I played in 2006. Listen mainly to the strings. I only used Dynamic Samples as well and no X-Velocity ... because I didn't know them at that time Embarrassed

http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/VSL_New_VI/BK_Betlehem_Strings_VI_06.mp3

Hope these pieces give you some new incentive to try it as well with dynamic articulations for bringing life into the music.

Best

Beat

(Edit)

Appendix

Sometimes I used the possibility of blending from sample 1 into sample 2. Example: You can start with a crescendo and after a while you blend into a sustain sample.

Fact is, that nice music with samples always needs a lot of work.

So for good results you should have the sounds of your samples (in all their layers) in mind and you also should have a lot of time and patience.

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Thu, Aug 01 2013 21:51
by Pyre
Joined on Thu, Jun 28 2012, Posts 149
Sorry, just on a slight sidenote - Moh, would you be in the position to compare working with Lemur to with VSL's own ipad app?

Thanks, just curious to see how the two compare.


Pyre
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Windows 10 Pro, Cubase 10.5 Pro
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Posted on Thu, Aug 01 2013 22:59
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1740

Lemur?

Nothing against Lemur for getting a first result with it.

But when it comes to the "fine-adjusting of samples" and bring them to their "maximum music" Lemur can't do magic.

My experience is that one has to be very close to each sample for such tuning tasks.

The tools you need for this are all ready for use within VI.

So why programming a controller first that it shall make a diminuendo longer when it is possible to do this directly within VIPro as well.

Today I don't use any controller  - even for "drawing" velocity curves - because I always had to fine tune them afterwards by the mouse.

So today I use the mouse just from the beginning and I believe that I'm - nevertheless - faster than in the past.

In other words:

The answer from my side to the question "Lemur?" is:

Why not trying this unit but don't believe that it will solve all your problems.

Sure is that it will take another bunch of time on the way to good music with samples.

Musical results need the chose of the "right samples" in any moment and this for each instrument in the orchestra, tempo variations, a natural dynamic, an arrangement which goes along the sample possibilities, later on of course a great mix, the perfect use of effects for treating all the instruments and finally a correct mastering job.

3 minutes of music can lead to 5-10 days of work. If all things are perfect the result is unspectacular in a way it appears just as MUSIC.

Try to find out where Lemur can help in the upper listing. Important isn't one more tool (even if it looks very nice) but a lot of knowledge "how to do all these different tasks".

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Fri, Aug 02 2013 05:29
by mohurwitzmusic
Joined on Tue, Sep 07 2010, Posts 297

The point was that if you want to avoid using dynamics samples and just stick with expression and/or modulation, Lemur's multiball will help you find some combination of the two controllers that works. 

MOH

www.midikinetics.com
Lemur touch controllers for composers and music producers.
Posted on Fri, Aug 02 2013 05:35
by mohurwitzmusic
Joined on Tue, Sep 07 2010, Posts 297

Pyre,

Sorry I don't know too much about VSL's own iPad app. Lemur is set up to deal specifically with my workflow. I use it not only to control my VSL samples, but also to control things in Cubase directly, adjust faders, adjust monitoring levels in my studio, control guitar FX racks, control synths, make my coffee (kidding, but that would be great...). So in that way, it's far more powerful because it's customizable. Steep learning curve though...

HTH

MOH

www.midikinetics.com
Lemur touch controllers for composers and music producers.
Posted on Fri, Aug 02 2013 20:43
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5640

On most solo instruments the crossfade will create some chorusing.  However this is mainly because of the programmer being too lazy to do dynamics the right way - with dynamic samples. You will obtain a far better and more realistic change of loudness. Also, using Note-on velocity changes combined with CC 11 expression can be done for many situtuions (an example being how timbrally a mf sample sounds o.k. for either mf OR a p sound because it is not too bright and with simple amplitude adjustment can be used as either). 

You can often use the crossfade anyway if any other instrument is playing because the chorusing starts to disappear - or become very hard to hear - when anything else is playing. 

Posted on Fri, Aug 02 2013 21:05
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5640

 One other thing about velocity crossfade is that it is a complex situation in general that sometimes works poorly  and other times excellently.  An example of it working perfectly is  if you have three solo instruments playing together.  Though each one may chorus a little, the ear cannot distinguish where the chorusing is coming from and so it will sound perfect. In fact, I A/B'd actual dynamic samples on each of the solos compared to velocity crossfading and they were not distinguishable. 

Also, the oboe is an instrument particularly suceptible to chorusing in crossfading because of its extremely bright thin sound. If you do the same thing with a flute it will not be detectable.  Another example is the recent Recorder library which has absolutely perfect crossfading at all levels.

Posted on Sat, Aug 03 2013 09:42
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1838

I think there is really nothing to gain from velocity cross fade for the solo instruments, actually. you have the velocity from VELOCITY and if you have the dynamic held notes... I use CC11 and track volume otherwise. this is an idea I keep seeing talk about but I think it has no real use for the solo instruments. I'm baffled that people believe there is something here.

MacBook Pro 16,1: 2.3 GHz 8-core i9
64GB 2667MHz DDR4
Mac OS 11.6.1
VE Pro 7.1056, Cubase Pro 11.0.0
Posted on Sat, Aug 03 2013 14:43
by wrathy
Joined on Thu, Dec 04 2008, Posts 12
civilization 3 wrote:

I think there is really nothing to gain from velocity cross fade for the solo instruments, actually. you have the velocity from VELOCITY and if you have the dynamic held notes... I use CC11 and track volume otherwise. this is an idea I keep seeing talk about but I think it has no real use for the solo instruments. I'm baffled that people believe there is something here.



Interesting.
I can see using the samples for "HELD NOTES" (ie say FL 1_dyn-me_Vib 3s) but how do you suggest to create a line of say two bars of 16th notes or 8th notes that cres/dim over those two measures?
CC11 will not get you even close any kind of realistic approximation of this, although it helps when used in combination with CC2.
best.
Posted on Sat, Aug 03 2013 14:51
by wrathy
Joined on Thu, Dec 04 2008, Posts 12
mohurwitzmusic wrote:

Without sounding like a broken record, I'll once again suggest using Lemur. You can create a multiball that controls Velocity XF on one axis, and Expression on another (as I do on my Youtube video "Composing using Lemur and sample libraries", at around 04:55). That way, you can decide what type of volume automation sounds best. I often use a combination of the two. It's far more than a workaround...it's actually a better way to work. It's great for quiet but heavy brass pads, like those found in Strauss's music. 

HTH

MOH



If I was doing as much orch music as I once was (oh the "old days") I would be on this ASAP.
What an amazing tool. It would cut the "key switch/articulation" workflow time in half.
Kudos for such a fantastic creation.
best.
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