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Second Clarinet
Last post Tue, Aug 27 2013 by Ricardo22, 18 replies.
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Posted on Sun, Aug 18 2013 22:24
by kanon
Joined on Thu, Oct 07 2004, Scotland, Posts 91

I currently have Woodwinds I - am I right in thinking that the only way to have a second clarinet is to do the usual transposition by a tone or semitone? Or am I out of date - I have not updated recently because of the very slow download speeds I achieve.

Feedback appreciated.

Kanon

Posted on Sun, Aug 18 2013 22:43
by Ricardo22
Joined on Mon, Oct 08 2012, Portugal, Madeira, São Martinho, Posts 74

 I think that is the way of doing it. I heard it that you can use pitch bend to play the same notes but with diferent samples to avoid playing the same samples as the first clarinet  so instead of hearing two clarinets, you pratically only hear one (not sure if it is like this.), Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this matter only for the notes played in unisson? I am new person to VSL community and I know only a little so I might not be the appropriated person to speak here.

Ricardo.

Posted on Mon, Aug 19 2013 06:01
by Casiquire
Joined on Sat, May 01 2010, Posts 325

Personally, I don't think the transposition trick is really even enough to play two in unison.  They're still the same instrument and to my ears they still sound like the same instrument recorded twice.  Usually a bit of panning and EQ really does the trick for me.

Posted on Tue, Aug 20 2013 01:22
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1562
kanon wrote:

I currently have Woodwinds I - am I right in thinking that the only way to have a second clarinet is to do the usual transposition by a tone or semitone? Or am I out of date - I have not updated recently because of the very slow download speeds I achieve.

Feedback appreciated.

Kanon

 

The idea here is to prevent phasing NOT to have a second Clarinet playing.  As Casiquire pointed out, you can create the illusion of a second clarinet by EQ and panning but be careful with the EQ as too much will sound obvious and contrived


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Tue, Aug 20 2013 09:00
by kanon
Joined on Thu, Oct 07 2004, Scotland, Posts 91

Thanks to all for helpful comments.

Kanon

Posted on Tue, Aug 20 2013 16:15
by didger
Joined on Sat, Oct 27 2007, Salt Lake City, Posts 68

Well, this is my cue. Any excuse I get, I post in... please give us a second clarinet! We've got two flutes, two bassoons, and a few types of oboes, so 2nd clarinet really is an obvious hole in the woodwind collection that I'd love to see filled.

Posted on Tue, Aug 20 2013 19:00
by Ricardo22
Joined on Mon, Oct 08 2012, Portugal, Madeira, São Martinho, Posts 74

I think I agree with Didger in this one. There are two flutes, two bassoons, one of each with oboes, one of each with english horns... but only one clarinet in Bb. I think it would be wise to give a 2nd clarinet in Bb or in A a chance! Wink

Ricardo

Posted on Wed, Aug 21 2013 05:53
by Casiquire
Joined on Sat, May 01 2010, Posts 325

I agree too!  Perhaps it would be a good idea to sample a clarinet in A.  That would be beneficial for the purists who want an authentic clarinet in A as well as people who just want a second clarinet since the tone of the two is similar enough.

Though maybe they won't do this because there's some kind of Dimension Woodwinds coming up...?

Posted on Wed, Aug 21 2013 11:38
by Ricardo22
Joined on Mon, Oct 08 2012, Portugal, Madeira, São Martinho, Posts 74

 Cool Yes I have hope for it!

Posted on Wed, Aug 21 2013 18:54
by gstoraa_2685
Joined on Mon, Jun 30 2003, Posts 30

I don´t see any use for dimension woodwinds, but there is a sore need for a 2nd clarinet. And, while I´m at it, can´t VSL sample that wonderful C trumpet with a normal straight mute, instead of that do it yourself allpurpose bastard  they are so proud of?

Gaute Storaas

www.gautestoraas.no

Posted on Wed, Aug 21 2013 19:15
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1726

There is a clarinet in Eb (Single Instrument, 100€ the full Library)...

...Yes, yes I know, Eb isn't Bb, but the sound of the Eb Clarinet is really another one than those from the Bb...

So if you are looking just for another sound this could be an option.

Take into account that the tone range is not the same...

Best

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Wed, Aug 21 2013 19:29
by Ricardo22
Joined on Mon, Oct 08 2012, Portugal, Madeira, São Martinho, Posts 74
Beat Kaufmann wrote:

There is a clarinet in Eb (Single Instrument, 100€ the full Library)...

...Yes, yes I know, Eb isn't Bb, but the sound of the Eb Clarinet is really another one than those from the Bb...

So if you are looking just for another sound this could be an option.

Take into account that the tone range is not the same...

Best

Beat

 

 Indeed, it is a viable option but I think some people rather prefer and want to play two clarinets instead of one being Eb and another in Bb (doubling). The time to sample another clarinet in Bb, will take an immense ammount of time since it has a huge ammount of samples (e.g: legatos). I agree with Beat that the Eb Clarinet is a very and really good option if you want another clarinet, but in the low registers of a clarinet in Bb, one of the clarinets needs to be transposed, EQ and panning so you can give that impression of a 2nd clarinet. Don't forget it sounds the same instrument but recorded twice! I know some people doesn't like this but I am not sure if VSL team is really towards to record another clarinet in Bb or a Clarinet in A. I don't know anything, something might happen... Hmm

Hope for it to happen!

Best,

Ricardo

Posted on Wed, Aug 21 2013 19:42
by gstoraa_2685
Joined on Mon, Jun 30 2003, Posts 30

The Eb clarinet is a different beast. Personally I do not care too much for it´s sound, although i has it´s uses. I have never asked for it when I have written for orchestra. But a 2nd clarinet, in A or Bb, that sits nicely with the one we already have, would make the library even better. For unison lines, (again, for me that is not overly important,) but harmonies and independent solo lines would sound more realistic with two different instruments. And VSL is all about realism. They say so, anyway.

A somewhat smaller sample collection, like bassoon 2, would be sufficient.

Gaute

Posted on Wed, Aug 21 2013 20:39
by kanon
Joined on Thu, Oct 07 2004, Scotland, Posts 91

I agree with Gaute.

Something along the lines of Bassoon II would be really useful.

Kanon

Posted on Thu, Aug 22 2013 01:32
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1562
gstoraa_2685 wrote:

 And VSL is all about realism. They say so, anyway.

 

When did VSL ever say they were all about realism?

They create the purist, cleanest and most detailed sounding samples on the market but not necessarily the most realistic.  it's the user who creates the realism or, more precisely, the illusion of realism through the miracle of digital trickeryComputer

But now we are veering off into another thread...


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Fri, Aug 23 2013 12:51
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5493

These are some really good posts here - I agree that another clarinet would be very valuable.  That idea about an A clarinet for "purists" as well as substituting for B flat clarinet is excellent.  The Eflat clarinet though a wonderful example of the samples is NOT a substitute - first of all (as mentioned already) it does not sound like a Bflat at all - much lighter and less rich timbre - and secondly the range does not go down as far.  Also, VSL already stated they are not going to create Dimension woodwinds because that recording technique  is not needed with woodwinds.  Though if they were sampling a symphonic band it actually would be needed because the resonance vs. divisi of the clarinet section and reeds in general in a large concert band is very similar to strings in an orchestra.

One thing that can be done right now in a larger orchestra is to use the clarinet ensemble on the second part.  I know that may sound crazy but it works very well in giving a richness to the overall woodwind section.  Also it is true that the transposition method works very well. In fact, if you pitch bend down a full step and transpose up the same (rather than a half step) it creates a slightly darker tone which is very beautiful and distinct from the untransposed clarinet.   With different humanize settings and a slight change in pan and EQ it is the sonic equivalent of two clarinets.  This has something to do with the fact that in normal classical orchestral playing vibrato is not used very much in the clarinets.  Vibrato is very personal and expressive, and so in oboe, flute and bassoon the sound needs to be more differentiated between first and second players and therefore the second instruments are much more necessary.   

Posted on Fri, Aug 23 2013 16:53
by Conquer
Joined on Thu, Sep 28 2006, Posts 812

I too would be happy to have a second clarinet. It would be good to hear VSL's sampling chops applied to a second instrument, whether in A or Bb!

Posted on Tue, Aug 27 2013 21:12
by Ricardo22
Joined on Mon, Oct 08 2012, Portugal, Madeira, São Martinho, Posts 74

YesCool

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