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Performance Legato
Last post Fri, Oct 25 2013 by johnstaf, 14 replies.
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Posted on Fri, Oct 11 2013 14:39
by Pyre
Joined on Thu, Jun 28 2012, Posts 143
Sorry, just to clarify something - am I right in thinking that the first note in a Performance Legato sequence will always be a 'normal' note, like a sustain articulation, and those that follow will be smooth?

If I have a fast violin sequence of a detache followed by three performance legatos, will the first legato note be transitioned from the detache? Or will it start as if standalone, and only transition to the two that follow it?

Many thanks.


Pyre
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Posted on Fri, Oct 11 2013 15:43
by MassMover
Joined on Mon, Sep 29 2008, Posts 235

Why don't you just listen what happens?

It will transition from the detache patch.

Posted on Sat, Oct 12 2013 01:57
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5511

The nice thing about the legato patches is you can transition from any starting note that is long enough.  This includes those detaches you mentioned, as well as dynamic patches, portatos, whatever.    If you keep the notes connected once you have gone to legato, all the remaining ones will be more legatos.  One thing to keep in mind is that a string player tends to work in two-note phrases,  and to an extent "runs out of" legato and has to switch to a new bow, so rarely will you hear more than one legato transition in a row. 

Posted on Sat, Oct 12 2013 14:59
by Pyre
Joined on Thu, Jun 28 2012, Posts 143
I had not thought of that, I'd been setting entire sections to legato without really considering it. Thanks very much, both of you, that's very helpful indeed.


Pyre
AMD Phenom 9850 Black Edition Quad-Core Processor (Water-Cooled)
8GB RAM
2x 1TB hard drives for libraries and audio, 1x 128GB SSD for OS
Presonus Firestudio 26-in 26-out firewire interface
Korg Triton Extreme-76 master keyboard, M-Audio MidAir-25 lap keyboard.

Windows 7 Ultimate, Cubase 4
VSL Symphonic Cube (standard library), Vienna Choir (standard library) and download instruments Recorders, Harpsichord, Basset Horn and Contrabass Clarinet.
Vienna Instruments Pro 2.4.13260 and Vienna Ensemble Pro 5.4.14074
Vienna Suite, Vienna MIR and all room packs
Sibelius 7 and Komplete 8
All 64-bit.
Posted on Sat, Oct 12 2013 16:38
by strytten
Joined on Sat, Jan 06 2007, Posts 65

I'm not a string player, but this two note only legato concept is surprising and doesn't sound right to me. If it is true, how did they handle the original recording sessions when the samples were collected? Did they have to collect every other interval in order to get all the legato intervals? Don't string players take pride in making each interval sound precise regardless of whether they're rebowing? I'd love to hear from Vienna and from string players on this. 

Steve Trytten
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Posted on Sat, Oct 12 2013 19:03
by Casiquire
Joined on Sat, May 01 2010, Posts 325

Technically a rebow would be required after only a couple seconds of playing, however, string players do work hard to make rebows inaudible, so I've felt no need to make an audible rebow in my recordings.  Also the whole topic goes out the window when we're talking about sections because a full string section can cover individual rebows and perform endless legato or even endless glissando.

Posted on Sun, Oct 13 2013 03:06
by noldar12
Joined on Thu, Dec 04 2008, Posts 582

Depending on the phrase, the duration of the notes, and the desired volume, it is possible for a strings player to play more than two notes in one bow, sometimes several more.  Playing four notes on the same bow stroke is not at all uncommon.

Posted on Sun, Oct 13 2013 08:22
by Conquer
Joined on Thu, Sep 28 2006, Posts 812
strytten wrote:
Did they have to collect every other interval in order to get all the legato intervals?

Yes, they recorded every interval up to an octave, up and down, for every note on the instrument. That's why it sounds so good.

Posted on Sun, Oct 13 2013 15:20
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5511

 If you would read what I actually wrote it was string players TEND to do two note legato phrases.   I never said  they CANNOT do more than that.  It depends on how loud or fast the music is - for example if it is very soft and light more legatos can be executed on one string.  Also, depending on the music it will be different.  Much Baroque or Classical music DOES use two note phrases in legato and any string section will tend to do that normally.  In addition to that it also depends on if you are defining legato as sul or on one bow, or if it is separate bows that are still closely connected.  I assumed this is samples that are being talked about, and the "real" legato is not separately bowed closely connected notes, but rather single bow notes that are slid between by means of fingering changes not bow changes.

The samples were all recorded with single legato transitions in each velocity layer. An extremely time-consuming and difficult process.  Each note is connected to another note by a single legato or portamento transition.  That is recorded - each and every one - separately (though they can be recorded in groups they all have to be handled in editing separately) and then dissected from the original note. This  single transitional note can be used as a "target" note from any new separate sample.  That includes very different samples such as the example of a crescendo that goes from pp to ff and then is connected to an ff transition sample to an ff target note.   Or any other sample in addition to the normally used sustains (as I mentioned) that is long enough to do an overlap and thereby trigger legato.

Posted on Mon, Oct 14 2013 04:26
by noldar12
Joined on Thu, Dec 04 2008, Posts 582

William, I am sorry I misread your post - for reasons I don't care to go into, misreading something can be a common error for me.

Posted on Mon, Oct 14 2013 16:35
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5511

 No problem, I never noticed you misreading things.     

Posted on Tue, Oct 15 2013 15:41
by Stephane Collin
Joined on Sun, Aug 02 2009, Posts 96

Nice topic.

Funny, sometimes I can hear a legato slur from a ghost f# note up to the lowest g on some violin patches.  Scordatura ?

Stephane.

Stephane

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Posted on Fri, Oct 18 2013 16:57
by MassMover
Joined on Mon, Sep 29 2008, Posts 235

It's not happening sometimes, it happens ALWAYS when you press and hold d#, e, f or f# on a violin patch and then g or higher. You do not hear the note below g itself, but you hear a recorded legato transition to the target note.

On dimension violins all notes from d# work, on the solo violin there is no transition from f, and on the other string instruments (viola, cello...) there might be some differences, too.

I always was wondering, where this is coming from. Maybe they planned to give the opportunity for scordatura and recorded lower notes as sustains as well, but then threw the plan overboard, but forgot to eleminate the transition from the programming.

Posted on Fri, Oct 25 2013 17:23
by johnstaf
Joined on Thu, Apr 21 2011, EI, Posts 203
I just discovered that today. It's a fascinating insight into the way VSL performance legato works. I just started on Dimension Strings and my violin legato was sloppy. I was used to only using monophonic legato, where the note-off timing doesn't really matter. These scordatura remnants were a great help in finding the best way to play the pLeg violins. A slightly non-legato touch on the keyboard makes the note transitions sound fantastic.
Cubase (OS agnostic). Various VSL bits and pieces.

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