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  • Mac Pro PCIe or External SSD

    I'm getting ready to update my studio and I was wondering if someone here could help me make a decision. It's always been my understanding that it's better to install your sample library on a hard drive other than the one your OS is on but I also understand that the new Mac Pro PCIe flash storage is much faster than the traditional SSD. So, what would be faster? Having your sample library on an external thunderbolt SSD (perhaps raid) or putting your sample libray on the internal drive (with the OS) of the new Mac Pro?


  • External TB2 is twice as fast as the internal PCIe 2 based flash drive (in theory). One thing to keep in mind id that PCIe is a parallel device in that it can have 16 independent lanes to move data. TB2 is serial and it only has two. However, that should not matter with the new MacPro. IMO, no matter how you look at it, your sample libraries (which are huge and contain 1000s of files), should be on external SSDs on the TB2 ports. There are 6 of those ports, and I can’t remember is there are one or two TB controllers. Either way, go external.

    About formatting, of your choices: RAID 0, JBOD or individual volumes, personally, as detailed below, I would divide the libraries up over separate volumes. But that could also depend on what sample libs you have.

    Apple lists the specs for the internal flash storage at 1200MB/s, which is fast. However, this MacPro ships with a 1TB flash drive, and that's the current size limit. That would not be big enough for your OS/Apps and sample libs (if you have the kind of sample libraries that a working pro has) - plus your iTunes, Mail,and iPhoto libs if they live on there as well. 

    This MacPro was specifically built for external expansion! And the TB2 ports, rated at 20Gb/s are plenty fast. Use the internal flash for OS/apps and general document storage. Remember, your Library directory’s folders will fill up quickly. I would also put any iTunes and iPhoto libs on external drives. Let the internal flash drive be an OS/apps drive. That would be efficient. It’s not just your samples that need to load and stream fast - your OS and apps need space and lanes to get to the CPU.

    To get SSDs that can take advantage of that speed you would need to RAID together at least 4 SATA III SSDs in a TB2 enclosure. But instead of making a single RAID 0 of 4 SSDs, I would buy 4 SSDs and spread your sample libraries across them in a manner so each SSD is getting read from equally. If this was just an orchestral project, obviously that would be strings, brass, winds and percussion on separate SSDs, or strings on SSD 1 and 2, Brass on 3, Winds and perc on 4, or something to that effect. If you have other libraries like large piano libs, or just misc libs, you'd just do the math and divide them up according to number of sample files, usage, and overall I/O numbers.

    Does that answer your question? If you want to know about older MacPros like my 2008, I'll tell you how I set it up. (basically a bunch of SSDs on an eSATA III bus on the PCIe 2.0 16x bus. I also use SSDs in RAID 0 on the internal SATA II bus and get 480MB/s with two SSDs.


    Regards, Steve Steele https://www.stevesteele.com
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    @thenightwatch said:

    ...If you want to know about older MacPros like my 2008, I'll tell you how I set it up. (basically a bunch of SSDs on an eSATA III bus on the PCIe 2.0 16x bus. I also use SSDs in RAID 0 on the internal SATA II bus and get 480MB/s with two SSDs.

    I also have a 2008 Mac Pro (2.8 GHz 8-core, 24 GB of memory) and was considering spec'ing up my machine internally with SSDs. I was looking at this PCIe card:

    http://www.sonnettech.com/product/tempossdpro.html

    Do you think this would be a good choice? I am unsure if it's worth investing so much in a 6 year-old machine vs. getting a Mac Mini i7 (with internal SSD) to use as my master and linking up my Mac Pro via ethernet / VE Pro to stream my samples.

    What do you think?

    P.S. sorry to hijack the thread!


  • Look at this thread !

    the big advantage of my solution is that the components are re-usable !

    Best

    Cyril


    MacBook Pro M3 MAX 128 GB 8TB - 2 x 48" screen --- Logic Pro --- Mir Pro 3D --- Most of the VI libs, a few Synch... libs --- Quite a few Kontakt libs --- CS80 fanatic
  • orchestranova - I have the 2-port Newertech 6G card, which has two SATA III ports. It's good for $39.00. There's also the 4-port, port multiplier card that allows you to hook up many RAIDs. That one is about $100. Both cards allow you to get the full bandwindth of your PCIe 2.0 slots (500MB/s), and a good SSD will come close to that. If you RAID them you'll definitely see 500MBs. I don't know much about the Sonnet other than the chipset and that other people have used it sucsessfully. My Newertech works great (except sometimes with Time Machine, see below).

    http://eshop.macsales.com/search/newer+tech+esata+card

    Is it worth it? Depends on a couple of things. I'm getting about 480MB/s with two Samsung 830s in a RAID 0 on the internal bus. That's not bad. It loads and helps stream projects MUCH faster than on a HDD, and noticably faster than on a single SSD. With the PCIe eSATA III card, the max is still going to be 500MB/s becuase of PCIe 2.0 speed limit. So if you're going to RAID your SSDs, the SATA II internal bus might be fast enough.

    If you don't want to RAID your SSDs, then I would definitaly get the eSATA III card. You'll basically double your speed. It's a no-brainer then.

    I think the ideal setup for the 2008 MacPro is this. Some people will agree with this and some won't, but I can tell you I've tried a bunch of different setups. 

    Use two SSDs on the internal bus, format them as RAID 0 and use them as your boot OS/Apps volume. Yes, it works fine, and you get double your size and speed, but you need to back them up all the time. Two HDDs, one as a file drive and one as a Time Machine (or clone drive, whatever) or mirror them if you don't need any HHDs for files, and keep them internal. I've learned that TM doesn't like eSATA that much (or at least my card). I get the "Can't make backup folder" error message when my TM drive is on eSATA, but all that had to be done was to restart the computer and/or the computer and the eSATA drive and all was fine again. For me, not a big deal as long as it works, which it does.

    Then put your sample and audio file SSDs on the eSATA bus. The card and case together are only $150 - $180. I kinda wish I would have bought the $100 4-port Newertech card so I could add more SSDs, but I'm ok as is. 

    So that's a total of six drives, Four SSDs, and two 2TB or 3TB HDDs. Oh, that's another issue. Here's where it gets weird. On the internal bus the size limit for a GUID partition HDD, without having a CoreStorage partition automatically added for you by the OS is 2.2 TBs. So you might keep your 6G HDDs on the eSATA III bus (even though TM sometimes has a problem with that). That's a good reason to get the 4-port card. Two 3TB HDDs and your SSDs on eSATA III.

    And last, you can always remove your lower optical drive (if you have one) and install two more SSDs in there and attach them to the two extra SATA ports that are on the motherboard. Some parts removal is required. You could potenially and easily have 6 internal SATA ports and at least 4 eSATA III ports avaiable to you for about $300-$350 (card, cases, and adapters for SSDs).

    That's a lot of flexability and potenial speed if RAID 0 is used. I don't know why more people don't do it. But, one more point. If you do all of that, you're problem won't be drive size and speed, it will be a lack of CPU punch. But as a slave, $300 can buy you a lot of options on a still useable 2008 MacPro, especially if you're going to use a somewhat limited MacMini (16GBs of RAM, and 2 internal bays). I wish Apple would make a 32GB Mac Mini. But 16GBs isn't bad if you're using VE Pro.

    I'm glad I got the eSATA card. Hope that helps!


    Regards, Steve Steele https://www.stevesteele.com
  • Thank you very much Nightwatch. That was very helpful information. I really appreciate it! It's good that I have a month to think about things before the new Mac Pro comes out. Cyril, I've been reading some of your threads as well. I'm happy to see that VSL has such a great community. It sure makes things a lot easier. Take care everyone and thanks again!


  • Hi all,

    Very interesting and great points. I'm still learning and trying to learn the best way to go. I have a pretty big sample library and am planning on expanding it with some Vienna instruments, and in any case considering VEPro5.

    I have the option of buying a great PC, with good processing and plenty of slots for SSD, but I really am pining for the new Mac Pro. There is lots to like about it, and, though I have no plans for video editing, except maybe an occasional homemade clip,

    I do want to compose music for video, and by most accounts this is done better with a Mac.

    Here's my problem/question.

    On a PC, it's a no brainer, and would buy some great, fairly cheap SSD's, spread my samples across them, and voila!

    I have considered scaling back, and having a nice slave, and a separate DAW, but my costs would be still right up there.

    My Dilemma then are the drives.

    I'm seeing external SSD drives, and they are often touted as fast, either at USB 3.0 speed, at 5GB/s or thunderbotls 10/20 gb per sec. The problem is that's the throughput of the connection. Fine, but some of these drives max out in the one to 200 MB/s as far as read/write seek time. Some of these samples can make an SSD on a SATA 6 drive lose some breath if enough tracks are used. What is out there that I could use (without breaking the bank) that would fly? I've seen discussions on RAID 0 before, but most of the time, since we're talking constant seek/reload , etc as opposed to a continuous recording that striping is not the preferable way to go. Is there a way to get an expansion card so that one of the nicer ones (like Samsungs' EVO series at 500+MB/sec) which are priced nicely and then make use of the Thunderbolt 2 ports, or even the USB3.0, although someone else said avoid those for live streaming or recording- I'm not sure why.

    I know this thread was about older Macs, but can any of you share some insight on which approach to take?

    Thanks,

    Jeff