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Dimension String Template
Last post Thu, Sep 18 2014 by mazeka, 48 replies.
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Posted on Mon, Mar 17 2014 19:29
by molemac_824
Joined on Fri, Jan 31 2003, London, Posts 87

The intimacy and expression possibilities of Dimension strings  is great but setting up for a newby Vsl is a minefield . Is there anywhere one can download some user presets , especially ones like this ?

Charlie
Posted on Tue, Mar 18 2014 10:13
by GoranTch
Joined on Tue, Mar 14 2006, Berlin, Germany, Posts 524

Very good template. I especially like the part from ca. 0'44'' onwards.

For those interested to hear further examples of DS in action - you can take a listen at Wagner and Mozart examples here. Both were done when only DS Violins were available, but they should give you a good impression of what is possible when combining DS with other VSL string libraries. Wagner example employes Orchestral & Solo Strings in addition to DS Violins, Mozart example employes Chamber Strings (for a smaller and more period performance-like playing and sound style).

Posted on Tue, Mar 18 2014 10:51
by Stephane Collin
Joined on Sun, Aug 02 2009, Posts 96

Absolutely great examples, Goran.

Stephane

PC core i7 hexa 64 gb ram
Macbook pro 6 gb ram
Motu 8M
Genelec 1030 A monitors
Adam S3X H monitors
Sennheiser HD 800 headphones
Beyerdynamic DT 880 pro headphones
Many Vienna Instruments
MIR pro
Posted on Tue, Mar 18 2014 11:03
by molemac_824
Joined on Fri, Jan 31 2003, London, Posts 87

Hi Saxer, are you any closer to wanting to share this template? plus 1 for contacting you directly

Charlie
Posted on Tue, Mar 18 2014 11:58
by Saxer
Joined on Sat, Apr 18 2009, Frankfurt Germany, Posts 116
oh, hi there everyone


you can download my patches here. they are done in 'vienna instrument pro' and will be online for a week or so (depending on the provider).


http://we.tl/YpZCFB1ECH


they are named with the number of players, section and divisi (A+B). basses are not included (i didn't have time to add them after they were published). i would be happy if someone could add them to the template (non-divisi) and upload them!



have fun!
Posted on Tue, Mar 18 2014 12:25
by molemac_824
Joined on Fri, Jan 31 2003, London, Posts 87

Thanks so much . Would you mind also adding a snapshot of your arrange page and mixer page in your daw  to see how this works ( or if you are on logic a template song even better . Hope I am not being greedy .

Charlie
Posted on Tue, Mar 18 2014 13:10
by Saxer
Joined on Sat, Apr 18 2009, Frankfurt Germany, Posts 116
there's nothing special in the mixer that i wouldn't do with any other strings

http://imageshack.com/a/img571/9162/yyom0.jpg

Posted on Tue, Mar 18 2014 13:32
by molemac_824
Joined on Fri, Jan 31 2003, London, Posts 87

Cool , thats great . Thats all I wanted to see . I also see you werent using MIR  or Mirx. for positioning  . Is that because you dont like the sound ? I like it for positioning but not reverb which sounds a bit harsh in my experience compared to others like Altiverb etc..The only thing I dont know now is whether its worth bothering with setting up Dimension strings with seperate players each postioned differently in mir . Obviously the workload in setting that up would be  intense so probably not . A final question I have is why are the legato patches playing polyphonically . ie to achieve a portamento at low velocity you have to be careful to not hold onto the 1st note too long otherwise you will here both . And a final request , any chance of uploading the vepro viframe . When I have the basses I will add them to the template and resend . Thanks again ps your demos and string arranging are fab . 

Charlie
Posted on Tue, Mar 18 2014 15:27
by Saxer
Joined on Sat, Apr 18 2009, Frankfurt Germany, Posts 116
molemac_824 wrote:
A final question I have is why are the legato patches playing polyphonically...



they just do, i did no extra edit for that. but i like it. sometimes it's nice to try out a chord while arranging... i had no problem with polyphonic notes when playing monophonic lines.
Posted on Tue, Mar 18 2014 15:34
by GoranTch
Joined on Tue, Mar 14 2006, Berlin, Germany, Posts 524
Stephane Collin wrote:

Absolutely great examples, Goran.

Thank you, Stephane, I am very, very pleased with how these turned out myself...

Posted on Tue, Mar 18 2014 16:00
by molemac_824
Joined on Fri, Jan 31 2003, London, Posts 87

Any luck with uploading the viframe ? I am doing an experiment with your template and one with Berlin strings and at the moment you are coming out on top but I am struggling to recreate the space you have which might be in the eqs or reverb settings . I notice you have a different setting for each section ?

Charlie
Posted on Sat, Mar 22 2014 17:01
by molemac_824
Joined on Fri, Jan 31 2003, London, Posts 87

Hi again,

I have recreated the template in ve pro ( minus the reverb and eq settings ) and it really sounds great , so thank you very much for sharing . I have a question about how best to achieve divisi writing with it . Is there a way of enabling say 6 tracks violins a and b , violas and cellos and having logic automatically split out the midi chanels so that you can play a chord and hear it in divisi ie so it only sends one note of the chord to each instrument . Basically the same way Lass does it in autoarrange . I have managed to set this up with other libraries using Kontakt with a script but the only way I can see this working with Vsl Dimension is to load all the sections in one instance and use auto voice . I did come accross something called smart scoring http://dawcontrol.com/product/smartscoring/  but I could never get it to work .

I presume you are just playing in each part seperately which sounds great but is potentially a lot more work .

Charlie
Posted on Sun, Mar 23 2014 13:36
by Saxer
Joined on Sat, Apr 18 2009, Frankfurt Germany, Posts 116
i have the A and B parts of the section on extra tracks in logic. for non-divisi parts i just copy the midi-recording from A to B.
i like the idea of auto-divisi in lass. it's funny that one of the main features of dimension brass - the auto-divisi - is missing in dimension strings.
but in the end auto-divisi in lass was not flexible enough for me as you always have the same dynamic curves for all divisi-parts.
so i'm quite happy with the seperate tracks.

maybe i will make track stacks in logicX for each section. you can fold them to a combined track (A & B stacked) or unfold to have them seperate. i'm in a bigger project without strings at the moment and have a new daw-mac to install. so the strings have to wait...
Posted on Sun, Mar 23 2014 13:51
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
Saxer wrote:
....but in the end auto-divisi in lass was not flexible enough for me as you always have the same dynamic curves for all divisi-parts.

That was always my objection to polyphonic legato. It never made musical sense to me. However, with Note Expression in Cubase that could be a thing of the past.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Sun, Mar 23 2014 14:37
by molemac_824
Joined on Fri, Jan 31 2003, London, Posts 87

Or buy yourself a ROlli keyboard and have each finger send seperate midi info , ie midi channel and cc and aftertouch . I have ordered mine but delivery is not expected for a while. In the meantime I am hoping someone can develop a midi fx script for logic .re note expression : obviously useful but unless I have not got it , it seems it is just a post recording editing feature rather than a live input one. ie the point of auto divisi is to be able to avoid editing your parts and hear the beauty of the seperate sections in real time  on the fly which is more inspirational and quicker. 

Seperate tracks is a great way of working for the most realistic demos but I am also wanting a shortcut version for sketching and composing that allows you to hear a full section when writing say a string pad that isnt everyone playing the same notes. Lass is close but I prefer the DImension strings sound.

Charlie
Posted on Sun, Mar 23 2014 15:59
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

I'll be interested to hear how you get on with that keyboard. For me
the main problem would be having to learn to play with a different
technique, having spent over 40 years playing with traditional Piano
technique. The other problem would be that the independence of fingers,
and touch would have to be very accurate, and I suspect at the time taken to get it right could be halved by just playing each line separately.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Tue, Mar 25 2014 18:20
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5704

To do all of this precise MIDI control in real time is actually more difficult than doing it afterwards by simple editing.  I used to try to control modulation while playing, but it is easier to put it in afterwards.  Even velocity is unnecessary since it is difficult to play perfectly every single note at the right dynamic with samples, regardless of your piano skills, so you will be editing anyway.  Some people brag about their pianistic technique ( not DG, but others)  which I find nonsensical.  Who cares about pianistic technique when you are playing a flute sample?  It is meaningless.

Posted on Wed, Mar 26 2014 09:06
by molemac_824
Joined on Fri, Jan 31 2003, London, Posts 87

It doesnt really have much to do with keyboard ability . It just sounds so much better playing a chord that is split into sections and when you have 5 cues to deliver a day you dont always have time to fiddle with editing . Its as simple as being able to press a bit harder with your left hand for example to emphasize or bring out a cello harmony within a chord or hold a chord with your left hand and play a 1st violin melody with your right but be able to have control over its volume and expression seperately as you play . Having said that my favoutite way of inputting strings is by ewi controller anyway which is monophonic but means you are inputting 2 ccs at once without having to use a mod wheel and without having to then edit the cc info because you get so much more of the expression and feel you want performing the part. The trouble with being lucky enough to use live strings is that the samples never come close so I should just accept that and stop wasting  time trying to  find the holy grail and  get sampled strings to sound real . I actually think developpers should stop releasing string libraries now . We have enough of the dam things already . Its like a tax on the composer $1000 a year each time a new one comes out ( and thats just strings, and like busses they all come at once ) and more importantly if they do get any closer then how are the musicians going to survive . With TV and film budgets reducing all the time, eventually we are not going to put any of the  money into the score by hiring real players so there will be no work for them . So keep making your demos and strings in particular sound fake so producers realize its worth giving the composer more money to spend on musicians. Sorry for digressing.

Charlie
Posted on Wed, Mar 26 2014 16:55
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5704

That is funny.  I don't mean to criticize your way of working, I am just used to writing and "writing" instead of  playing MIDI is a natural extension of it. 

It is not true that live players are always better though.  VSL samples are now better sounding when used properly than live ensembles until you get to a great orchestra's level - such as a major symphony orchestra or a top level studio orchestra.  As I have said many times here and nobody believes, the norm in orchestral playing is NOT what you are used to hearing on film soundtracks and CDs and TV.  People (I don't mean you, just a lot of people)  have gotten used to an abnormally high level of virtuosic playing as a result of the mass distribution of music, and they assume that is what happens normally when musicians get together to form an orchestra.  It doesn't.  The norm is all the other orchestras - vastly more in number - that play slightly out of tune, insert wrong notes here and there, execute hasty or poorly phrased expressions, etc.  And I am NOT talkng about extremely low level student orchestras, I am talking about orchestras you would have a hard time getting to play your music that represent sizeable communities.    Those middle tier orchestras comprise most of all orchestral playing. Composers - before VSL -  had to use them and have their music represented poorly.  But with VSL, it is now possible to do something beautiful in performance quality just as soon as it is composed!

I also find it difficult not to digress...

Posted on Wed, Mar 26 2014 19:56
by GoranTch
Joined on Tue, Mar 14 2006, Berlin, Germany, Posts 524
William wrote:

It is not true that live players are always better though.  VSL samples are now better sounding when used properly than live ensembles until you get to a great orchestra's level - such as a major symphony orchestra or a top level studio orchestra.


Exactly. Imo, this point is in the meantime beyond any serious discussion. And I was reminded just how much it is beyond any serious discussion in a string orchestra concert I attended ca. two months ago. A far more then just decent (and very respected) Berlin orchestra played (among other pieces) the string orchestra version of Bruckner's String Quintet. It wasn't a bad performance (although definitely underrehearsed, sometims hard on ears as far as tuning and intonation were concerned, and in general too "sloppy" for my taste) - but I must say, I would choose a VSL version of the piece done on the level of the best VSL-made string orchestra productions known to me over such a recording any time.

 

William wrote:

(...) and  As I have said many times here and nobody believes, the norm in orchestral playing is NOT what you are used to hearing on film soundtracks and CDs and TV.  People (I don't mean you, just a lot of people)  have gotten used to an abnormally high level of virtuosic playing as a result of the mass distribution of music, and they assume that is what happens normally when musicians get together to form an orchestra.  It doesn't.

Yes, it doesn't. Every regular concertgoer knows this. I live in a city with (at least) 5 symphony orchestras, ranging from first to, let's say, lower upper class at worst. And nevertheless, this still holds true.

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