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The old Sibelius problem
Last post Tue, Apr 22 2014 by almound2, 7 replies.
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Posted on Wed, Feb 12 2014 10:38
by Oceanview
Joined on Sat, Jan 12 2008, Oxford, England, Posts 135

There is advice that it is not a good idea to make changes in the Sibelius mixer. But if two instances of an instrument - like violins - are loaded Sibelius assigns both to channel 1 so the second has to be manually changed to channel 2. This can lead to an escalation of unassigned channels which have to be reassigned, etc. It also seems to lead to articulations sticking on one of the lines. Copy and pasting a new staff sometimes solves this problem, but not always. This causes more trouble than almost anything else I can think of in using Vienna successfully with Sibelius.

I think I read a thread recently that expressed the view it didn't matter if both instances of the same instrument ended up on the same channel. Is this right? 

Have there been any developments in dealing with this kind of problem?

Oceanview

Oceanview
Posted on Wed, Feb 12 2014 11:03
by andi
Joined on Wed, Feb 18 2004, Vienna, Posts 3150

Hello Oceanview!

This kind of problem can happen in one of the following cases:
- A mistake somewhere in your Playback Configuration.
- The Sibelius instruments (Sibelius menu "i") are different than the instruments defined on the Manual Sound Sets page.
- Manual output or channel setting have been made in the Sibelius mixer. In this case reset all outputs to (Auto).
- Sibelius version older than 6.2.

In most cases the Troubleshooting section of the "Optimizing Sibelius Playback" manual should help.
http://www.vsl.co.at/en/68/141/460/576/655.htm

As far as I can see, there's no more development necessary or possible on this matter.

Oceanview wrote:

I think I read a thread recently that expressed the view it didn't matter if both instances of the same instrument ended up on the same channel. Is this right? 

 Wrong. Two staves should play on two channels.

Best regards,

Andi

Andreas Olszewski
Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Wed, Feb 12 2014 16:17
by Oceanview
Joined on Sat, Jan 12 2008, Oxford, England, Posts 135

Thanks for your thoughts, Andi. I have come to the conclusion that it is always risky to use two instances of the same instrument with Sibelius. I find constantly there is a problem with the articulations of the second instance sticking. Once strings have played staccato they do not return to legato unless a slur is placed - but one may not want slurs, just a normal sus sound.

My solution to this when making a five-part string section with Special Edition is to make Violins 2 the SE's chamber strings and not use orchestral strings twice. Another solution is to use the Chamber strings from the full Chamber strings library for a second violin section. Also, to combine a solo violin from SE with the solo violin from the Solo Strings library. I mention this in case it helps anyone else. Better this than constantly having to copy and paste a whole stave onto a new stave.

I'd be interested if any other Sibelius / Vienna users have thoughts on this.

Oceanview
Posted on Sun, Mar 02 2014 10:32
by DaveTubaKing
Joined on Fri, Feb 27 2004, London, Posts 757

Indeed - when you have multiple instruments of the same type such as my current project which has 32 violin staves, 8 viola, 8 cello and 8 doublebass across 6 VEP instances the only thing to do is from the start set up your configuration to cycle through the complete set of programme names/sound IDs (24 in my case as I don't have divisi strings) so that there is only ever one of each kind in each VEP instance. It's time consuming at the start but less time consuming that trying to sort out the mess after the event if you let Sibelius do it's own thing. Same for the woodwing and brass as well.

David Carter (DaveTubaKing) http://www.davetubaking.com

W10 Pro (64bit), Z390 Aorus Pro wifi MB, Intel i7-8700K s.7 GHz, Corsair 64GB (4x16GB) DDR4 3000MHz, Samsung 970 EVO M.2, 2 x OCZ Agility 3 480GB SSDs, Sibelius 8.4.1, Symphonic cube, VEPro6, MIRPro, Focustite Scarlett Solo, Nvidia GeForce GT 710 2GB GDDR5
Posted on Sun, Mar 02 2014 15:16
by Oceanview
Joined on Sat, Jan 12 2008, Oxford, England, Posts 135

Hello Dave, thanks for your comment. I've found in my experience that sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. It always feels risky to load two instances (and Sibelius puts them on the same channel in its mixer). Sometimes putting a new stave in and copy / pasting frees it up, but not always. Staccato and pizzicato seem to get stuck more than other articulations - which is annoying because they are so obvious when you don't want them.

Could you explain what you meant by 'cycle through the complete set of programme names / soundIDs'? I didn't understand that.

Thanks.

Oceanview
Posted on Tue, Mar 04 2014 18:41
by DaveTubaKing
Joined on Fri, Feb 27 2004, London, Posts 757

Yes, sorry not well explained. I need 3 seperate VEPro instances to cope with all the string staves. Because I have four string collections "Appassionata" "Orchestral" "Chamber" and "Solo" I have 24 different "Program Names" I can assign to each channel. So irrespective of what instrument in the score is using which stave I will simply go though all the channels and assign all 24 prgramme names in order and then repeat after 24 until I have assigned all channels. So String VRPro1 starts "Solo Violin" for channel 1, "Solo Viola" for channel 2, "Solo Cello" for channel 3 etc. In String VEPRO2 the first channel would be "Appassionata Violins" because that is the 17th programme name in my list and so on. Then I manually go through the Sibelius mixer and assign each string stave in order in the score to each VEPro and channel in order. So if the 12th string stave in the score is solo violin 12 that will be assigned to the 12th Channel in VEPRo 1 which has the Programme Name "Chamber Doublebasses".

The point is if you have lots of instruments with the same name make sure they all have different Programme names and no two channels in any VEPro instance has the same Programme name.

Not all projects are as extreme as mine though.

David Carter (DaveTubaKing) http://www.davetubaking.com

W10 Pro (64bit), Z390 Aorus Pro wifi MB, Intel i7-8700K s.7 GHz, Corsair 64GB (4x16GB) DDR4 3000MHz, Samsung 970 EVO M.2, 2 x OCZ Agility 3 480GB SSDs, Sibelius 8.4.1, Symphonic cube, VEPro6, MIRPro, Focustite Scarlett Solo, Nvidia GeForce GT 710 2GB GDDR5
Posted on Tue, Apr 22 2014 23:52
by almound2
Joined on Tue, Dec 10 2013, Posts 3
I'm a writer and not a keyboardist, so I prefer to produce my music as Sibelius scores and then play it back according to rules I set up in Kontakt.
https://plus.google.com/u/0/comm...es/111271689261263632311

I use LASS 1.5, but my technique work with other sound sample libraries, as well. To address your issue, I take it that in Preferences of Sibelius you have checked, "Use Variant Sounds for Identical Instruments" and unchecked, "Use Same Slot for Similar Instruments." Another concern is the Soundset you are using. Typically I avoid auto-loading as, even under the best circumstances, it gives spurious results. If you are using Jonathan Loving's Soundsets, make sure to use the FIXED version of the House Style, because it does not auto-load. Finally, you should know that when loading a large number of samples (i.e an orchestra), Sibelius will start by assigning MIDI ports to the strings (#1 to Violins I, #2 to Violins II, etc.) and then will continue assigning MIDI ports next to the woodwinds, brass, and finally the percussion. Another way to approach the issue is think about putting one of the violins on a different Kontakt page (say, that which contains MIDI port 17-32).

Just a little about me. I get the same realism from Sibelius sheetmusic playback as others get by using a sequencer and a MIDI keyboard. These are links to the tutorials:
Getting string samples to sound realistic https://www.youtube.com/playlist...VHX6BK1hlLnclKx6xcyRbIHW
Getting string samples to sound realistic - Two https://www.youtube.com/playlist...VHWwvMyd0I-g3mRp58y00flA

I've used the playback techniques I've developed in my tutorial videos to re-record my violin sonata. The sound you hear at my Youtube channel, Novaclassica, is simply the raw sound samples as it issues from Kontakt, merely balanced off according to dynamics and given just a hint of convolution reverb to brighten it up. Here's the link to the violin sonata:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKXwLj4B4oA

The next few videos to be released deal with string ensemble and divisi MIDI mock-up.
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