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Posted on Tue, Mar 04 2014 20:10
by jlgagne
Joined on Mon, Sep 10 2012, Posts 21
I can't figure out why I can't just get my template to play cleanly without any drop outs or crackles in thickly orchestrated places. I have a brand new slave: Mac Pro, 3.8 Ghz Quad Core i7, OSX Mavericks 10.9.1, 32 gigs of 1600 Mhz RAM, VEP5, and a 1TB Samsung 840 Evo SSD streaming samples. This connects to my other Mac, a less powerful 2.4 Ghz Quad Core i7 sequencer on 10.9.1 with 16 GB of RAM, that is purely dedicated to Pro Tools 10.3.6 (also tried PT 11.1 which didn't provide better or worse results).

I'm not brand new to these kind of setups so I've tried a few things, but I just can't get everything to work as well as it should given what I've just invested in in terms of specs. My samples are all kontakt libraries, and again, streamed from a very fast SSD. I connect to them through 5 instances of VE Pro 5 (Master, Strings, Brass, Winds, Perc). Most of the time it plays fine, but at dense parts it can crackle and drop out (at 512 buffer size). If I bump it up to 1024 then it plays cleaner, but at that point the latency is just unmanageable in terms of playing things in.

I'm not sure why I can't get 512 to work consistently. Sometimes it's fine, other times it struggles. When I play a sequence and look at the activity monitors for both computers, the CPU on the sequencer hovers at about 4-5% (it's just receiving audio), and the slave/sampler runs at about 25%. So I don't think it's CPU, and with an SSD it's unlikely to be disk speed either. What's the problem here? Is there anything I can do to optimize my setup?

Some additional information: Delay compensation in Pro Tools is ON; I'm connecting to each instance with a VEP RTAS set at 2 buffers (changing that to 4 doesn't seem to make a difference), and the threads of my slave are set to 4 thread per instance (again, changing these settings doesn't seem to make a difference to the CPU in activity monitor). If I can optimize any of these settings to get a better setup, please let me know.
Posted on Tue, Mar 04 2014 21:33
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1622

One thing jumps out at me: 4 threads per x 5 instances = 20 and you probably have 8 logical cores. I have neglected to look at these settings a couple of times and the reason I did look at them was poor performance. Which was sorted by assigning cores more normally. You may want to leave 2 for Pro Tools. I realize you said you see no difference in Activity Monitor but I don't know it does nothing to performance, and I don't know you didn't try less per instance.

Mavericks may be part of it as well. Also, are you using dynamic IP?

MacBook Pro 15,1: 2.9 GHz 6-core i9
32GB 2400MHz DDR4
OSX 10.14.5
VE Pro 7
Posted on Tue, Mar 04 2014 21:59
by jlgagne
Joined on Mon, Sep 10 2012, Posts 21
Right, I have 8 possible threads and 5 instances, so I originally had it set to two per instance. I've tried setting this to 2, 4, 6, 8 -- nothing seems to really make much of a difference.

I'm using DHCP with manual IP address on both machines.
Posted on Thu, Mar 06 2014 16:16
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2629
jlgagne wrote:
I'm using DHCP with manual IP address on both machines.

You should use "manually" look at : http://cyrilblanc.fr/site_principal/slave_mac.html

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd
VSL lib on a Raid 0 of 4 x 256 GB ssd Sata III - Raid 0 of 4 x 64 GB for other libs
System on a 1 TB ssd
Audio Motu PCI system 84 ins / 64 outs
Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
---
Macbook pro Retina 2.7 ghz 16 GB
---
Mac Mini server 10.10 (server EyeTV, Itunes, WEB, and Backup )
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Overdrive
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra, Art Conductor 5, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Thu, Mar 06 2014 16:22
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2629
jlgagne wrote:
I have a brand new slave:

A Macpro with an I7 processor ! The Macpro have a Xeon processor ; is it a hackintosh ? 

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd
VSL lib on a Raid 0 of 4 x 256 GB ssd Sata III - Raid 0 of 4 x 64 GB for other libs
System on a 1 TB ssd
Audio Motu PCI system 84 ins / 64 outs
Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
---
Macbook pro Retina 2.7 ghz 16 GB
---
Mac Mini server 10.10 (server EyeTV, Itunes, WEB, and Backup )
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Overdrive
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra, Art Conductor 5, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Thu, Mar 06 2014 20:16
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1622

Maybe you should try to get it under 8 so you have something left for PT. You can set it per instance in fact, rather than the metaframe preferences setting.

I have had performance issues I didn't understand abate by attending to this. I don't know for you. Mavericks has been reported widely to suck for this type of work, and I don't believe it's recommended by VSL. The last I saw here went 'you may want to test it in its own partitition, but we're not supporting it at this time.'.

MacBook Pro 15,1: 2.9 GHz 6-core i9
32GB 2400MHz DDR4
OSX 10.14.5
VE Pro 7
Posted on Sun, Mar 09 2014 04:41
by jlgagne
Joined on Mon, Sep 10 2012, Posts 21
What do you mean? The only menu I can find that is similar to that is the Vienna Ensemble Pro -> Preferences tab, which I've tried putting the multiprocessing option to many different settings. Is that what you are talking about or is there a different window where you can tweak this? If so I can't find it. Mine doesn't have the option for "Use Preferences Settings".
Posted on Wed, Mar 12 2014 10:25
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1622

"Project Settings..." is in the Edit menu, the bottom entry. "Use Preferences Settings" refers to the settings in Preferences which are global, eg., '4 threads per instance' for all instances. This makes it for that instance only.

The parenthetical 'per instance' may be misleading. I mean that I'm setting threads per differently in instance 1 than I am in instance 2 should I prefer to.

MacBook Pro 15,1: 2.9 GHz 6-core i9
32GB 2400MHz DDR4
OSX 10.14.5
VE Pro 7
Posted on Wed, Mar 12 2014 10:59
by gusttsilis
Joined on Mon, Jun 26 2006, Los Angeles, Posts 17

I use a souped up PC with two xeon processors 16 cores about 3 ghz...48 gigs server motherboard. I was advised to place MIR on a slave box and to purchase processors which run at 32 cores with about 6 ghz in order to eradicate the issue you are having.

 I could not play at 512 without crackles and drop outs. I load up all VSl piece by piece so I have 50 strings 4 fr hrns 3 trumpets 4 bones percussion you get the idea. With thick harmonic passages and dense sections where there are many articulations happening, I use 16,000 settings on the VE pro latency and 1024 on my sequencer. Then for playback I have no issues. Composing I do without  MIR... sad because the sound of MIR is unique. Once I've finished the piece or a section I then open up the MIR project. I also record audio with live drums and trumpet this is also a problem. I think putting MIR on it's own box and using the VSL midi over lan was the best suggestion so far. When I have more cash I'm going to try that. 

Searching for the truth and honesty in sampled sounds for the Orchestra............
Posted on Thu, Mar 13 2014 01:05
by RootNDoo
Joined on Tue, Nov 25 2008, Posts 46

Apologies if already stated elsewhere, but double check your connection address.  

If you have a wireless network adapters it might be connecting through that instead of over hardwired.  When I accidentally connect through wireless address on my machine, CPU spikes galore.  I can't play one instrument.  

Mac Pro 6-core 3930k Asus Saberooth x79
32GB RAM 10.9.5 Digital Performer 9
Windows 7 - 16 core Xeon E5-2650 v2 - SuperMicro
128 GB Ram - VE Pro hosting Kotakt, Play, SWAM
Posted on Thu, Mar 13 2014 02:18
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1622

A couple of other things to consider: the people that really need the low latency tend to use something other than Pro Tools, which if you browse here a bit you may get a sense of it performing not quite as good as say Cubendo. I think [with eg., an orchestra loaded] if you want latency down to where you're playing everything in and it's mostly useful, you want something else.

The last even small symphonic scale thing I got done, the buffers were at 1024; I don't manage projects so that there is a 'composing' template vs a 'mixing' template, though. I like the final sound to be what I'm working with composing; however I will go for instances with a lot less instruments loaded during early getting parts to track where I need to make drums happen reliably on time.

I demo'd MIR Pro thoroughly, I wasn't going to be able to fully exploit it without quite a bit more horsepower. There I would tend to want to dedicate the resources to it more after-the-fact. I don't even know how much horsepower I would need to stick every instrument in there while composing.

I don't know, but I tend to think expecting SSD to make things wildly more achievable through itself could be misleading.

MacBook Pro 15,1: 2.9 GHz 6-core i9
32GB 2400MHz DDR4
OSX 10.14.5
VE Pro 7
Posted on Thu, Mar 13 2014 02:51
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2629
gusttsilis wrote:

 With thick harmonic passages and dense sections where there are many articulations happening, I use 16,000 settings on the VE pro latency and 1024 on my sequencer. Then for playback I have no issues. Composing I do without  MIR... sad because the sound of MIR is unique. Once I've finished the piece or a section I then open up the MIR project. I also record audio with live drums and trumpet this is also a problem. I think putting MIR on it's own box and using the VSL midi over lan was the best suggestion so far. When I have more cash I'm going to try that. 

Is there is a way to switch off MIR PRO when you are composing, or do you need two orchestral templates ?

Best

Cyril

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd
VSL lib on a Raid 0 of 4 x 256 GB ssd Sata III - Raid 0 of 4 x 64 GB for other libs
System on a 1 TB ssd
Audio Motu PCI system 84 ins / 64 outs
Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
---
Macbook pro Retina 2.7 ghz 16 GB
---
Mac Mini server 10.10 (server EyeTV, Itunes, WEB, and Backup )
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Overdrive
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra, Art Conductor 5, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Tue, Mar 18 2014 17:12
by jlgagne
Joined on Mon, Sep 10 2012, Posts 21
civilization 3 wrote:

A couple of other things to consider: the people that really need the low latency tend to use something other than Pro Tools, which if you browse here a bit you may get a sense of it performing not quite as good as say Cubendo. I think [with eg., an orchestra loaded] if you want latency down to where you're playing everything in and it's mostly useful, you want something else.

The last even small symphonic scale thing I got done, the buffers were at 1024; I don't manage projects so that there is a 'composing' template vs a 'mixing' template, though. I like the final sound to be what I'm working with composing; however I will go for instances with a lot less instruments loaded during early getting parts to track where I need to make drums happen reliably on time.

I demo'd MIR Pro thoroughly, I wasn't going to be able to fully exploit it without quite a bit more horsepower. There I would tend to want to dedicate the resources to it more after-the-fact. I don't even know how much horsepower I would need to stick every instrument in there while composing.

I don't know, but I tend to think expecting SSD to make things wildly more achievable through itself could be misleading.



How sure are you that Pro Tools could be the problem? The reason I ask is that I've been eyeing up Cubase 7 for a while and if you're pretty sure that I could run at 256 or 512 in Cubase then that would be good enough for me.
Posted on Tue, Mar 18 2014 19:07
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1622

 I think Pro Tools could be a factor, and I can't guarantee anything with Cubase 7, I can't even install a demo of it under the OS I'm using. I have read of too many people having terrible issues with virtual instruments with that. But here are people that can't tolerate 512 in the buffer; and there are people that say they have a good experience. Not everybody's sandbox is the same. PT as slower than Cubase [ought to be] is not an uncommon belief.

MacBook Pro 15,1: 2.9 GHz 6-core i9
32GB 2400MHz DDR4
OSX 10.14.5
VE Pro 7
Posted on Thu, Mar 20 2014 21:35
by jlgagne
Joined on Mon, Sep 10 2012, Posts 21
civilization 3 wrote:

 I think Pro Tools could be a factor, and I can't guarantee anything with Cubase 7, I can't even install a demo of it under the OS I'm using. I have read of too many people having terrible issues with virtual instruments with that. But here are people that can't tolerate 512 in the buffer; and there are people that say they have a good experience. Not everybody's sandbox is the same. PT as slower than Cubase [ought to be] is not an uncommon belief.



Okay, well Pro Tools wasn't the issue. Downloaded the Cubase 7.5 trial, duplicated my PT template into Cubase, and still get the same crackle issues. In fact upping the buffer size in Cubase didn't really have an effect while at least at 1024 in PT it's a little better. Really stumped here. If it's not CPU (according to activity monitor), and it's not drive speed (SSD), not RAM (64 GB 1600 Mhz), what is it? VE?
Posted on Fri, Mar 21 2014 04:37
by RootNDoo
Joined on Tue, Nov 25 2008, Posts 46

Do you have a wireless network adapter?  If so, try disabling that in the system bar and use VE again.  At least just to see if this is a factor.  I get this exact same problem when I accidentally connect wirelessly, instead of over Gigabit LAN.  

Also, make sure you've followed the steps to create static IP addresses for both machines if you haven't already.  I like to use 169.254.1.X as my wireless network defaults to the usual 10.0.0.x.

And try connecting the computer not through your router.  Try plugging a CAT6 cable directly into each computer's LAN ports.  See if these help.  This REALLY reminds me of the network issue I had.

Mac Pro 6-core 3930k Asus Saberooth x79
32GB RAM 10.9.5 Digital Performer 9
Windows 7 - 16 core Xeon E5-2650 v2 - SuperMicro
128 GB Ram - VE Pro hosting Kotakt, Play, SWAM
Posted on Fri, Mar 21 2014 04:51
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2629
RootNDoo wrote:

Also, make sure you've followed the steps to create static IP addresses for both machines if you haven't already.  

did you follow my tutorial ? 

http://cyrilblanc.fr/site_principal/slave_mac.html

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd
VSL lib on a Raid 0 of 4 x 256 GB ssd Sata III - Raid 0 of 4 x 64 GB for other libs
System on a 1 TB ssd
Audio Motu PCI system 84 ins / 64 outs
Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
---
Macbook pro Retina 2.7 ghz 16 GB
---
Mac Mini server 10.10 (server EyeTV, Itunes, WEB, and Backup )
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Overdrive
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra, Art Conductor 5, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
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