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vienna ensemble pro with one computer
Last post Sat, Mar 08 2014 by Cyril Blanc, 18 replies.
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Posted on Wed, Mar 05 2014 01:12
by GRHM
Joined on Mon, Oct 21 2013, Posts 30

Do I get any significant benefit in having things run more smoothly if I use Vienna Ensemble Pro without a slave (everything on one computer)?

 I use a mac mini 2.3ghz i7 with 16gb ram, a 480gb ssd boot drive, and an extra 1 tb hybrid drive.  I don't have a second desktop computer to run as a slave, but I do have a macbook with the basic setup of a normal harddrive and 4gb ram.  Could that macbook be an adequate master computer, and would I gain much by having the macbook control the mac mini as opposed to doing everything on one computer?  

I'm asking because in spite of the fact that I have upgraded the mac mini in many ways and setup vienna ensemble pro, I still get audio drop outs.  That leads me to question whether VEP is doing anything at all seeing that it's being used with just one computer.  

Posted on Thu, Mar 06 2014 16:25
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2723

What DAW software do you use ?

MacBook Pro 2019 16" + 2 x Odisseey G9 49" Big Sur

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd

Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series, Many Synchronised libs
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 2, Art Conductor, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Thu, Mar 06 2014 16:45
by GRHM
Joined on Mon, Oct 21 2013, Posts 30

Logic 10

Posted on Thu, Mar 06 2014 17:18
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2723

If you use the Event Input or IAC you should put VSL on the faster MAC an Logic on the slower one

Use Fixed IP address see : http://cyrilblanc.fr/site_principal/slave_mac.html

You can test both of your MAC with Xbench or other benchmark software

You have to be carefull to have VSL sample lib on fast Disks, SSD  is recommended

MacBook Pro 2019 16" + 2 x Odisseey G9 49" Big Sur

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd

Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series, Many Synchronised libs
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 2, Art Conductor, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Thu, Mar 06 2014 17:51
by GRHM
Joined on Mon, Oct 21 2013, Posts 30

What is "Event Input," and what is "IAC"?  What is Xbench?  Would the macbook that has only 4gb ram be okay to do this if it's just a master computer?  Or would it still need more ram?  Would using VEP with a macbook controlling the mini make things run smoother than running VEP with just the mac mini?

 I'm actually not using any VSL libraries.  I'm using East West and Cinesamples libraries and Omnisphere + EZ Drummer.   Thanks for the information.

Posted on Thu, Mar 06 2014 17:58
by GRHM
Joined on Mon, Oct 21 2013, Posts 30

Also, would I need a seperate vienna key for the slave?  Can I connect to the slave with VEP and then be able to see what's going on the slave on my monitor?  Or does the slave need to be hooked up to a monitor as well?  

Posted on Thu, Mar 06 2014 18:53
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2723

Event input is to send Midi to VE PRO SERVER

IAC is use to send Midi to an external player

Network midi is doing the same over Ethernet

Xbench is testing the speed of your MACs

E/W has it's own player ! So why do you want to use VE ?

It's also recommended to use SSD with other libs like E/W, K5 .......

MacBook Pro 2019 16" + 2 x Odisseey G9 49" Big Sur

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd

Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series, Many Synchronised libs
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 2, Art Conductor, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Thu, Mar 06 2014 19:50
by GRHM
Joined on Mon, Oct 21 2013, Posts 30

I thought the purpose of VE pro was to take stress off the daw by hosting all vst's outside of it, whether they're in a different computer or in another part of the main computer, so that's why.  Kontakt instruments have they're own player as well though, don't they? And yet people host those in VEP.  

I guess if I were to go through with controlling the Mac mini with a less powerful macbook it'd be with network midi.  Do I need a second vienna key for a slave computer?  Does the slave computer need to be hooked up to a monitor as well, or can you see what's going on in the slave just by connecting to it with vep?

Posted on Fri, Mar 07 2014 02:38
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2723

I cannot help you with : Cinesamples libraries  + EZ Drummer.

>  Do I need a second vienna key for a slave computer?  

yes

> Does the slave computer need to be hooked up to a monitor as well, or can you see what's going on in the slave just by connecting to it with vep?

You dont need a monitor ; you can use "Screen Sharing" but that will add network traffic

>I thought the purpose of VE pro was to take stress off the daw by hosting all vst's outside of it, whether they're in a different computer or in another part of the main computer, so that's why.  Kontakt instruments have they're own player as well though, don't they? And yet people host those in VEP.  

Correct me if I am wrong :- The main interest of VE PRO AND MIR PRO is to have all the instruments on your stage so you can mix a lot of players- The inconvenient is that you have to deal with extra cpu load because of the overhead of VE, so you need a powerfull configuration for big orchestral templatesI have network K5 QLSO but using Network Midi and an audio interface on the slaveI have use K5 standalone thru IAC

On my actual configuration I have put K5, Omnisphere, QLSC in Logic and I send audio to VE+MIR PRO

Maybe somebody else can give you hints with your other libs

MacBook Pro 2019 16" + 2 x Odisseey G9 49" Big Sur

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd

Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series, Many Synchronised libs
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 2, Art Conductor, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Fri, Mar 07 2014 05:14
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1942

For the master, if you are not opening one of the servers but just connecting to it, you won't be using a license; there won't be any point in using VE Pro as a server on that machine due to its slow HD.

Based in my experience, I wouldn't hold out a lot of hope for that MBP giving you much of an edge over local host on the more robust computer. You can try and see.

MacBookPro 18,3
Apple M1 Pro: 2.3 GHz 8-core i9

Mac OS 12.3.1
VE Pro 7.1298, Nuendo 11.0.41
Posted on Fri, Mar 07 2014 05:18
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1942

Cyril wrote:
E/W has it's own player ! So why do you want to use VE ?
Why do you think VE Pro supports third party plugins? What a strange question. Do you believe that people with other than VSL samples, eg., Play simply eschew VE Pro after buying it, in order to just plug that in into their DAW? The same question applies, why do you use VE Pro?

But you appear to have a basic misconception of things there. Some of the users that post here don't use Vienna Instruments at all. VE Pro takes the load off of the sequencing host and prioritizes the plugins, so every person using a large sort of template using sample-based vis gains the advantages offered by VE Pro.

MacBookPro 18,3
Apple M1 Pro: 2.3 GHz 8-core i9

Mac OS 12.3.1
VE Pro 7.1298, Nuendo 11.0.41
Posted on Fri, Mar 07 2014 05:23
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1942

GRHM wrote:
I still get audio drop outs.  That leads me to question whether VEP is doing anything at all seeing that it's being used with just one computer. 
Evidently it is doing something for a lot of users. If you're saying that it needs to be used on more than one computer to be doing anything at all, my experience is with two computers, the master being a MacPro quad of the same vintage as my double quad, and as local host. I haven't experienced a loss I can easily quantify. I did some comparisons before selling the machine I was using as master. So I have the opposite assessment as what you're leaning towards, that it does a similar thing as local host as it did as a slave.

One caveat, I think when I was using a lot of audio in Cubase, it's better to have that on its own machine. However I can't tell what's going to happen with Logic as host. If you're going to be doing Event Input, that's been reported to slow down performance significantly, for instance.

Again, I will point out that you are using OSX.9, which is not recommended and has been IME widely reported as a suckfest for this kind of work.

MacBookPro 18,3
Apple M1 Pro: 2.3 GHz 8-core i9

Mac OS 12.3.1
VE Pro 7.1298, Nuendo 11.0.41
Posted on Fri, Mar 07 2014 07:50
by MWE
Joined on Thu, Apr 02 2009, Netherlands, Posts 122

My three cents,

GRHM wrote:
That leads me to question whether VEP is doing anything at all seeing that it's being used with just one computer.

It definitly does help in the case of logic (Or at least it did for logic 9.)  Audio dropouts can have many causes so for starters I would check to see if core audio buffer has an appropriate value. Second I would check how many cpu's logic of your core i7 is actually using (with track record enabled). 

GRHM wrote:
Could that macbook be an adequate master computer, and would I gain much by having the macbook control the mac mini as opposed to doing everything on one computer?  
 

I have worked with a dual core macbook pro master only running logic 9 and remote desktop connection. That configuration was usable in terms of audio performace except for the fact that I ran out of master cpu while using remote desktop. 

Posted on Fri, Mar 07 2014 15:29
by GRHM
Joined on Mon, Oct 21 2013, Posts 30

But aren't all instruments already on your stage just by loading them all directly into the daw?  I don't see how one would need a seperate application to do that, as that's what daws are for in the first place.

Posted on Fri, Mar 07 2014 17:52
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2723
GRHM wrote:

But aren't all instruments already on your stage just by loading them all directly into the daw?  I don't see how one would need a seperate application to do that, as that's what daws are for in the first place.

I speak of MIR PRO stage 

In order to have MIR PRO to treat your external instrument plug-ins you need either to host the plug-in in VE or to receive it's audio signal in VE

From what VSL support told us It is not recommended to mix mutiple MIR stages, but some user does it

With MIR the final mix (EQ and reverb) is done in MIR,  you dont event have to return the audio signal in your DAW, you could have an audio interface in your slave.

the diagram is :

DAW -----Midi----> VE PRO SERVER ----> VE PRO ------VI instrument--- MIR PRO ------audio back to DAW

DAW -----Midi----> VE PRO SERVER ----> VE PRO ------other player--- MIR PRO ------audio back to DAW

DAW -----Midi---->  other player -----Audio---> VE PRO SERVER ---- VE PRO ------audio in --- MIR PRO ------audio back to DAW


MacBook Pro 2019 16" + 2 x Odisseey G9 49" Big Sur

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd

Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series, Many Synchronised libs
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 2, Art Conductor, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Fri, Mar 07 2014 19:17
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1942

Cyril wrote:
>  Do I need a second vienna key for a slave computer?  

yes

You do not need a key to connect to the slave on the master. Two computers, one key. If you are opening a server on both, you need two keys.
Cyril wrote:
> Does the slave computer need to be hooked up to a monitor as well, or can you see what's going on in the slave just by connecting to it with vep?

You dont need a monitor ; you can use "Screen Sharing" but that will add network traffic.

I recommend two monitors. I would recommend two monitors using it as local host, actually.

Cyril wrote:
>I thought the purpose of VE pro was to take stress off the daw by hosting all vst's outside of it, whether they're in a different computer or in another part of the main computer, so that's why.  Kontakt instruments have they're own player as well though, don't they? And yet people host those in VEP.  

Correct me if I am wrong :- The main interest of VE PRO AND MIR PRO is to have all the instruments on your stage so you can mix a lot of players
The primary impetus of VE Pro is to provide a means to set up a server farm without requiring a second sound card, an all-software solution. You appear to be conflating it with MIR Pro. For a time, the installation of the former provided an integration with the latter but they are now two different things, and MIR Pro became a separate plug-in. But MIR Pro is not the same 'interest' necessarily.
Cyril wrote:
I have network K5 QLSO but using Network Midi and an audio interface on the slaveI have use K5 standalone thru IAC

Well, you enjoy dicking about with computers more than I do. Personally I would not recommend using things that are demonstrably less efficient than VE Pro as you are doing. It's made so we don't have to go to these lengths. I don't see a lot of utility for the next person with such a suggestion. Other virtual instruments work in VE Pro just like VSL instruments do, and my experience is surely like most people's, that one can get quite a lot more instruments up at one time using VE Pro.

MacBookPro 18,3
Apple M1 Pro: 2.3 GHz 8-core i9

Mac OS 12.3.1
VE Pro 7.1298, Nuendo 11.0.41
Posted on Fri, Mar 07 2014 23:23
by MWE
Joined on Thu, Apr 02 2009, Netherlands, Posts 122
GRHM wrote:
But aren't all instruments already on your stage just by loading them all directly into the daw?  I don't see how one would need a seperate application to do that, as that's what daws are for in the first place.

Yeah. All animals are created equal but some are more equal than others. (as in your coworker...).

But seriously. If you're still talking about audio dropouts, try to keep it simple until you find a cause that forces you to deviate.  What numbers do you find on audio buffer and cpu usage? (I would be tempted to revisit logic.)

To answer your question more direct, you are right to observe that all instruments are loaded (on stage) in logic and it shouldn't be necessary to use another host (vepro sec) on the same machine.( Unless the involved instrumentation puts so much strain on the machine, it forces you to delegate part to other machines of course.)

In case of logic (9) one is forced pretty fast to offload because in most cases logic assigns your complete multitimbral signal chain to a single core.

Al rescate Vepro which uses your hardware more far more economical and significantly reduces the work of logic, leading to improvements on one and the same machine

Best Martijn 

Posted on Sat, Mar 08 2014 09:50
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2723

> Well, you enjoy dicking about with computers more than I do. Personally I would not recommend using things that are demonstrably less efficient than VE Pro as you are doing. It's made so we don't have to go to these lengths. I don't see a lot of utility for the next person with such a suggestion. Other virtual instruments work in VE Pro just like VSL instruments do, and my experience is surely like most people's, that one can get quite a lot more instruments up at one time using VE Pro.

Excuse me I did not find the translation to French for "dicking"

I know my approch with computer could be quite different than you, my job was to test and evaluating software on many different computers (from big IBM mainframe), also I was a system programmer.

So I like to push software to it's limits

As this problem of clicks and pops is so complex and can come from a lot of different problems I was trying to give hints because it is impossible to say : your solution is .....

It will be great if VSL programmers could insert into the software a routine that will analyse the behaviour of your configuration and say what is faulty

Today the solution could be a mix of all kind of connection and configuration, this will depends of your score, the instruments and the players that you will use. THE big problem is to spread and balance the load !

VEPRO adds overhead to the players, a lot of user are reporting problems with VE PRO and Play  ! what about the other player he is using ????

I had better results in my test using IAC !

Last year I could not do any music because I was building a new studio, Now I have re-install all my stuff in the new studio I had the bad surprised to find out that my test song that was playing fine in January 2013 was playing with clicks an pop and audio drop out now.

I have to work on that when I return from holdays at the end of the month.

  • What has changed in VE/Logic to add overhead ?
  • if it because I have a 2 x raid 0 of 2 x ssd instead of a raid 0 of 4 x ssd ?
  • is it because I have K5 libs on a HD  
  • is it because I have add the Imperial in my lib 
  • ???

The main problem with Logic and VE Pro is that Logic uses one CPU to send to VE Pro and IAC.

Why is VE PRO playing those clicks and pops ? Do I have to put MIR PRO in Logic

I have talk with VSL about not using the 1st core, the answer is that it is not possible in OS X, as it is OS X that deals with it.

The problem of Logic has been reported to the Logic team, they did not do anything to fix this in Logic X !

It was great the time when I was using midi synth, no clicks and pops ! Smile

Before I had an 8 core for Logic 9 and my 12 core with a raid of HD for VSL, that was working fine

I got rid of the 8 core and put a sata III card with 4 x SSD in Raid 0 on the 12 core. that was working fine

Now I get click and pops and audio drop outs ! 

What I will do  :

1) This guy should test his two machines with Xbench to find out which one is the most powerfull and put VE on it. 

2) Put Logic on the other computer

Set Logic to 1024 and set VE to use the maximum of core and normal pre-load buffer size in Directory Manager

Then he has to start testing this little by litte until he gets problems

This will not be very easy because he is using a lot of different players.

  • II will start 1st to use his different players, one at a time if OK
  • I will then add 1 players, 2 players .... testing each changes

if that is working OK that's fine he can try to reduce Logic audio buffer to 512 and test again.

If not that should help him to find out who is going on overload (master or slave)

If the master is OK then I will start to move players in Logic testing each changes

That should help him if  he has to max ram the slave or the master and/or if he has to add ssd to the slave.

He has to do a lot of trials to find THE solution.

MacBook Pro 2019 16" + 2 x Odisseey G9 49" Big Sur

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd

Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series, Many Synchronised libs
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 2, Art Conductor, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
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