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NewMacPro with HP Xeon Workstation together?
Last post Wed, May 07 2014 by Rob Welsh, 32 replies.
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Posted on Mon, Apr 14 2014 21:28
by Rob Welsh
Joined on Thu, Feb 12 2004, Chicago, IL, Posts 68

I am hoping to get some thoughts on the optimal configuration of how best to utilize these two computers together. I have an older HP Z800 Workstation 2 processor 4 core Xeon 5590, 48 gb of RAM, Sonnet Tempo SSD Pro card which hold a terabite SSD and a 500 Gb SSD RAID 0 through the PCI-e slot giving it a 900 MB/s throughput. The system drive is on a separate SSD drive.

I would like to use the HP as the slave computer and use a new Mac Pro 4 core, 500 gb drive as the Master. My question is it possible or recommended to use additional vienna libraries on the Mac as well, say all String Libraries minus the Dimensions that will be on the PC, as to stream samples from both of these computers? I have just about everything Vienna has put out plus additional sound libraries as well. I'm wanting to best utilize these two computers and welcome any ideas on the best way to do so.

Vienna Pro5

LogicX

Sibelius Ultimate, Logic Pro 10
Mac Pro 2x3GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon,
9 GB RAM, OS 10.6
HP Z800 Workstation 2 x Intel Xeon x5580 3.2GHz Quad Core
48G RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
Echo 3G Audio interface
Motu 828 MKII

Posted on Wed, Apr 23 2014 04:11
by Rob Welsh
Joined on Thu, Feb 12 2004, Chicago, IL, Posts 68

Anyone have any thoughts on this :-)

thanks

Rob

Mirpro

Vienna Pro5

Logic ProX

Sibelius Ultimate, Logic Pro 10
Mac Pro 2x3GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon,
9 GB RAM, OS 10.6
HP Z800 Workstation 2 x Intel Xeon x5580 3.2GHz Quad Core
48G RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
Echo 3G Audio interface
Motu 828 MKII

Posted on Thu, Apr 24 2014 02:02
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5513

I would use a Mac Pro as the slave (if it is the new one) since it is doing the hardest work of playing back samples and by all accounts is awesome for multi-processing.  It should be maxed out in RAM in order to use a lot of instruments in MIR.  It would make no sense to use it for controlling an older PC - that would be exactly opposite of what you should do.  Though if you had a third computer, that older PC could be a good secondary slave.  The controlling computer has the least CPU intensive work to do.  Once you use a big orchestral template with MIR, you will need the closest equivalent of a "super computer" you can get to handle the actual playback.

Posted on Thu, Apr 24 2014 08:12
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
William wrote:

I would use a Mac Pro as the slave (if it is the new one) since it is doing the hardest work of playing back samples and by all accounts is awesome for multi-processing

That's not an option, as the OP is using Logic.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Thu, Apr 24 2014 14:46
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5513

That's right - I was assuming my own sequencer since I hate Logic and therefore blotted it out of my consciousness.  However to me - someone who really wants a new Mac Pro - it would be absurd to use a Mac Pro as an external MIDI sequencer with an old PC for sample playback.  It would be like using a Saturn V rocket to launch a Sputnik.    (Or another simile of your choice...)

Posted on Thu, Apr 24 2014 16:33
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
William wrote:

That's right - I was assuming my own sequencer since I hate Logic and therefore blotted it out of my consciousness.  However to me - someone who really wants a new Mac Pro - it would be absurd to use a Mac Pro as an external MIDI sequencer with an old PC for sample playback.  It would be like using a Saturn V rocket to launch a Sputnik.    (Or another simile of your choice...)

TBH a new Mac Pro is a waste of money for anyone, unless they are making use of those hugely expensive graphics cards.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Thu, Apr 24 2014 17:40
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5513

Unless you've used one you could not possibly know that.  All reports from people actually using these are not only positive but nearly maniacal in enthusiasm.  I frankly don't see why you would totally reject these computers.  Any amount of power using multiple core parallel processing is very desirable  with VSL especially with large setups. 

However  this is obviously another in a series of fruitless arguments here so I'll sign off - again. 

Posted on Thu, Apr 24 2014 19:40
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

Bill, there is nothing magical about the new Mac Pros. I only have 10
cores (20 threads) in my studio computers, but in all other respects
the spec far outstrips anything that the Mac Pros have. Apart from the
graphics cards. I'm not saying that the Macs aren't powerful, but to
better what I am using you have to get the 12 core machine, and have a
load of stuff hanging off it, at a cost of well over £10K. Apart from the graphics cards.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Sat, Apr 26 2014 09:37
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2664

A second hand Macpro 2010 12 core, if you put a SATA III card and SSD, is a good alternative if you do not need the graphic cards of the New Macpro

Mine is now 65 % idle most of the time, playing the big symphony "From the new world" of Anton Dvorak with MIR in 5.1

The crackel I was speaking in a previous post is comming from the Trumpet in C and it is only happening with some articulations, VSL is working on the problem.

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd
VSL lib on a Raid 0 of 4 x 256 GB ssd Sata III - Raid 0 of 4 x 64 GB for other libs
System on a 1 TB ssd
Audio Motu PCI system 84 ins / 64 outs
Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
---
Macbook pro Retina 2.7 ghz 16 GB
---
Mac Mini server 10.10 (server, Itunes, WEB, and Backup )
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 2, Art Conductor 5, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Sat, Apr 26 2014 17:27
by Errikos
Joined on Tue, Jun 12 2007, Posts 1061

Hi Cyril, glad you found your culprit. I just wanted to say that the New World Symphony is hardly a Big Boy test - that is for such workstation as everybody is talking about in this thread. Maybe in 5.1, I don't know... However, as a symphonic score, this symphony is nothing special in terms of power requirements.. I would be very interested in your results with something like The Planets, The Rite of Spring, Chout, etc.

If you can't notate/MIDI it yourself, it's NOT your music!

In these modern days to be vulgar, illiterate, common and vicious, seems to give a man a marvelous infinity of rights that his honest fathers never dreamed of. - Oscar Wilde
Posted on Sat, Apr 26 2014 22:17
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2664

Hi Errikos,

The New world symphony is very heavy as all tremelos are done with notes !

If you want, send me a Logic file or a Midi file to test

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd
VSL lib on a Raid 0 of 4 x 256 GB ssd Sata III - Raid 0 of 4 x 64 GB for other libs
System on a 1 TB ssd
Audio Motu PCI system 84 ins / 64 outs
Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
---
Macbook pro Retina 2.7 ghz 16 GB
---
Mac Mini server 10.10 (server, Itunes, WEB, and Backup )
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 2, Art Conductor 5, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Sun, Apr 27 2014 00:32
by Errikos
Joined on Tue, Jun 12 2007, Posts 1061

For the moment I have to stay with my iMac so really I am not that bothered at the moment to send you a file. Maybe when I am about to upgrade I'll send you one of my own massive scores...

I don't understand your point though. I thought there were tremolo-patches available in the library? In any case - and for your benefit (like I said I am not in a position to buy a new computer) - I would suggest you find MIDI files of the scores I proposed and test the busiest sections. Believe me, Dvorak's tremolandi don't begin to compare.

Incidentally, is it also your opinion that the new Mac Pros are only for graphic artists and not worth the price?

If you can't notate/MIDI it yourself, it's NOT your music!

In these modern days to be vulgar, illiterate, common and vicious, seems to give a man a marvelous infinity of rights that his honest fathers never dreamed of. - Oscar Wilde
Posted on Sun, Apr 27 2014 04:25
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2664

Hi Errikos 

> For the moment I have to stay with my iMac so really I am not that bothered at the moment to send you a file. Maybe when I am about to upgrade I'll send you one of my own massive scores...

can somebody else send me a massive score 

> I don't understand your point though. I thought there were tremolo-patches available in the library?

The midi file I use does not know that there are tremolo-patches available in the library,  I use a raw file !

>In any case - and for your benefit (like I said I am not in a position to buy a new computer) - I would suggest you find MIDI files of the scores I proposed and test the busiest sections. Believe me, Dvorak's tremolandi don't begin to compare.

when you have all the string section playing "des quart de croches", with tempo going up to 240 you can see the CPU getting used in Logic in the red

> Incidentally, is it also your opinion that the new Mac Pros are only for graphic artists and not worth the price?

I will make a responce of "normands" "peut être bien que oui peut être bien que non "

Its a moderate yes and no, the 12 core 2010 = to the 8 core 2013

There was 12 core 2010 on the refurb at 5 ??? $

The gain between 8 core 2013 and the 12 core 2013 is 17 % if my memory is good

On my Macpro I have 4 x screens !, I will not go back to work with one screen with VSL and my 100 instrument templates

Apple shoud introduce a Macpro with cheap graphic card for users that are not in the film industry and that do not need 4K

So you can get the 8 core 2013 at around 6K$, so it is not such a bad price.

The problem is Intel as the 12 core proc is at  $2,749.99 ( Intel 2013 is Revenue of $52.7 Billion, Net Income of $9.6 Billion Generates $21 Billion in Cash from Operations)

Intel is having almost the monopoly so it is dictating the prices !

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd
VSL lib on a Raid 0 of 4 x 256 GB ssd Sata III - Raid 0 of 4 x 64 GB for other libs
System on a 1 TB ssd
Audio Motu PCI system 84 ins / 64 outs
Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
---
Macbook pro Retina 2.7 ghz 16 GB
---
Mac Mini server 10.10 (server, Itunes, WEB, and Backup )
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 2, Art Conductor 5, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Sun, Apr 27 2014 04:42
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2664

Errikos or William

Can you check if the score is ok :

Rite of Spring

I have read this on: http://www.classicalmidiconnection.com/stravinsky.html Uploaded on Mar 15, 2009

Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring (Sacre du Printemps) - Part 1 of 4 - was performed by Jay Bacal on a single 16GB quad-core Vista 64bit PC computer using only the virtual instrument software from the Vienna Symphonic Library.

So you dont need so much power for this file!

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd
VSL lib on a Raid 0 of 4 x 256 GB ssd Sata III - Raid 0 of 4 x 64 GB for other libs
System on a 1 TB ssd
Audio Motu PCI system 84 ins / 64 outs
Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
---
Macbook pro Retina 2.7 ghz 16 GB
---
Mac Mini server 10.10 (server, Itunes, WEB, and Backup )
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 2, Art Conductor 5, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Sun, Apr 27 2014 09:27
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
Cyril wrote:

The problem is Intel as the 12 core proc is at  $2,749.99 ( Intel 2013 is Revenue of $52.7 Billion, Net Income of $9.6 Billion Generates $21 Billion in Cash from Operations)

Intel is having almost the monopoly so it is dictating the prices !

Cyril, that's perfectly true, but as they invented the product, they are entitled to charge whatever they like for it. That's also why I went for the 10 core in my machines.


I do also agree that a Mac Pro without the fancy graphics cards would be a
good option. For me (leaving aside the OSX part of it), I still wouldn't like
things hanging off it in order to make it usable, but I can see that for many
other people it would become an good option. It just seems a shame that having
designed something to be portable, they then make sure that it's not really portable by having most stuff that we need connected externally.


DG


Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Sun, Apr 27 2014 14:45
by Errikos
Joined on Tue, Jun 12 2007, Posts 1061
Cyril wrote:

Errikos or William

Can you check if the score is ok :

Rite of Spring

I have read this on: http://www.classicalmidiconnection.com/stravinsky.html Uploaded on Mar 15, 2009

Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring (Sacre du Printemps) - Part 1 of 4 - was performed by Jay Bacal on a single 16GB quad-core Vista 64bit PC computer using only the virtual instrument software from the Vienna Symphonic Library.

So you dont need so much power for this file!

I looked at The Sacrifice on Sibelius from MIDI. The score looks mostly ok as a transcription from MIDI, meaning it's more or less there in terms of pitch (excepting some notes out of range), but with no articulations or dynamics - I don't know whether those should show in notation-from-MIDI, perhaps they are available on piano-roll lanes and CC information when one opens the same file in Logic.

However, on principle, if all of Stravinsky's notation goes into the simulation - as I presume it did in Jay's version - and that computer you mentioned was able to accommodate it, it should fly through Dvorak's score like it was a Satie miniature. It just makes musical sense. 

I agree with Daryl in that Apple designed the trash bin with graphics people in mind, who don't really need to "hang" anything off the computer in order to work. It would be nice for them to have considered us as well, perhaps bring out the wonderful Cube out again, something to which we could add components. And yes, a bloody DVD-drive to boot! Why should we clutter the desk with an external unit or two (almost everybody has two)? DVDs and CDs are not obsolete yet. Unless it is going to take them another 5-10 years to update the chassi again...

While we're at it, is it clock speed that is priority, number of cores, RAM, or what is the best combination/hierarchy thereof, for people who work from notation to simulation - think big 40-staves (not tracks) scores with 2-3 voices per staff.

If you can't notate/MIDI it yourself, it's NOT your music!

In these modern days to be vulgar, illiterate, common and vicious, seems to give a man a marvelous infinity of rights that his honest fathers never dreamed of. - Oscar Wilde
Posted on Sun, Apr 27 2014 15:14
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2664

Errikos,

If Jay Bacal has manage to play the Rite on spring with a 16GB quad-core Vista 64bit PC computer, I am not going to spend time putting on my Mac

I can tell you that the Dvorak piece was not plaing on a 16GB quad-core Mac

Give me a more heavy score to try

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd
VSL lib on a Raid 0 of 4 x 256 GB ssd Sata III - Raid 0 of 4 x 64 GB for other libs
System on a 1 TB ssd
Audio Motu PCI system 84 ins / 64 outs
Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
---
Macbook pro Retina 2.7 ghz 16 GB
---
Mac Mini server 10.10 (server, Itunes, WEB, and Backup )
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 2, Art Conductor 5, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Sun, Apr 27 2014 16:09
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5513

I corresponded with Jay Bacal on The Rite of Spring performance and he told me he had to do it in several passes freezing audio as that computer could never do it all in real time.  The Rite is gigantic in its demands for articulations and tracks, far beyond normal symphonic orchestration, because it first of all has a very large orchestra with larger than normal numbers, and pushes each instrument to limits not used by anyone except Mahler, R. Strauss, Schoenberg and other more recent composers. 

However Cyril you are completely right about the Dvorak not playing either on that power of computer, which is more like a bare minimum for modest orchestrations if you are using VSL and MIR. 

Posted on Sun, Apr 27 2014 17:08
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2664

Hi William

Good to know that Jay had to do it in several pass. I will take Jay's files on VSL site and put it in Logic.

I will keep you informed

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd
VSL lib on a Raid 0 of 4 x 256 GB ssd Sata III - Raid 0 of 4 x 64 GB for other libs
System on a 1 TB ssd
Audio Motu PCI system 84 ins / 64 outs
Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
---
Macbook pro Retina 2.7 ghz 16 GB
---
Mac Mini server 10.10 (server, Itunes, WEB, and Backup )
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 2, Art Conductor 5, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Mon, Apr 28 2014 04:43
by Rob Welsh
Joined on Thu, Feb 12 2004, Chicago, IL, Posts 68
William wrote:

I would use a Mac Pro as the slave (if it is the new one) since it is doing the hardest work of playing back samples and by all accounts is awesome for multi-processing.  It should be maxed out in RAM in order to use a lot of instruments in MIR.  It would make no sense to use it for controlling an older PC - that would be exactly opposite of what you should do.  Though if you had a third computer, that older PC could be a good secondary slave.  The controlling computer has the least CPU intensive work to do.  Once you use a big orchestral template with MIR, you will need the closest equivalent of a "super computer" you can get to handle the actual playback.

Maybe I didn't explain what I was hoping to do very clearly. I wasn't asking which computer, the New macpro OR the HP workstation, would be best used as a master/slave configuration. I was wonder if there was a way to use BOTH computers for sample playback, one with the sequencer (Sibelious, Logic X) and the other with MIR Pro but BOTH playing back samples. Also the "old pc" is an HP Z800 Workstation with TWO quad core processors equaling 8 cores running at 3.2 mh sec. The Z800 has 12 slots for RAM that can hold up to 192 gigs of RAM. The samples will be held on two large SSD drives RAID 0. Currently my new Macpro is the SINGLE processor 4 core. The new Mac Pro's still cannot equal the maximum RAM amount of the HP. I'm just wondering if the Vienna software allows Master/slave BOTH playing back samples

Sibelius Ultimate, Logic Pro 10
Mac Pro 2x3GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon,
9 GB RAM, OS 10.6
HP Z800 Workstation 2 x Intel Xeon x5580 3.2GHz Quad Core
48G RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
Echo 3G Audio interface
Motu 828 MKII

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